[FFML] dredging up the old (reply to an ancient letter)

[DB Sommer]

Oops. Was supposed to be private. My apologies for clogging the list, 
and for the record, nah, no reason to review it on ff.net. I really just 
needed to respond to the comments I never responded to. Already said  
what I would on the fic.


On 3/15/2011 1:10 AM, DB Sommer wrote:
> On 3/15/2011 1:00 AM, mccrowe wrote:
>> Oh DB, don't go down this road.  Reading the archives is fun, but sooner
>> rather than, later madness will consume you.  Madness, I say.
>>
>> However, I do notice that Nick is still writing, in case you'd want 
>> to post
>> this as a No Dominion review on his ff.net site. :)
>
> Oh? The ff.net search couldn't find it. Are you sure it's there. If so 
> give me the link, I'll call him on it maybe. :)
>> I haven't read the fic, but he might fire back with his TASS award 
>> for it.
>>
>> -mccrowe
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 5:26 PM, DB Sommer<sommert at consolidated.net>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Heh. In going through the old emails from *years* ago I realized I 
>>> never
>>> replied to this missive from. I doubt there's enough interest to 
>>> create any
>>> controversy, hopefully. But despite the years gone by I should have
>>> responded and am doing it now so it's not something I feel I left 
>>> undone.
>>>
>>> Nick Leifker:orm
>>> [FFML] [critiques and other stuff] A most interesting day...
>>> From: Nicholas Leifker<nightelf at thekeep.org>
>>> Date: 2002-04-30 09:27:22+00:00
>>> View Raw
>>>
>>> Well. That was fun...
>>>
>>> Let's see. DB accuses me of bashing;
>>>
>>> % Actually I should have said 'the actions were identical to those of
>>> someone bashing a character'. Yes, there actually is a difference. 
>>> And no, I
>>> was unable to discern the difference initially. Now I do. I would 
>>> not call
>>> it bashing: just very poor writing when you're capable of better.
>>>
>>> moreover, he does so in such a way
>>> that I cannot honorably defend myself at first.
>>>
>>> % I always kind of wondered about that 'honorable' part, since Nick 
>>> did a
>>> fine job of defending himself. I disagreed with nearly everything, 
>>> but he
>>> did defend himself in an articulate manner. It could be I'm just not 
>>> seeing
>>> something about it, though, so I'll concede him that.
>>>
>>>   And people wonder why I
>>> get upset...
>>>
>>> % No more than people wonder why i get upset :) I think we simply 
>>> upset one
>>> another.
>>>
>>>
>>> (sigh) Oh, well. I don't care anymore. I've seen similar petty
>>> tactics used by Ukyouphiles and Akanephiles back in the days of Thy
>>> Inward Love, Bitter End, and Iris; it's just their form of little
>>> censorship, trying to get their versions of characters up regardless of
>>> canon.
>>>
>>> % Now this is... insulting. Very. I read the canon too. Your 
>>> interpetation
>>> is stretched to say the least, in outright contrast to the source 
>>> material
>>> in many places. Will get to your 'points' below that you mention. 
>>> nice try
>>> though with the  'I have proof and you don't' tactic.
>>>
>>>   I'm just saddened to see it from a group of fans that I'd held
>>> in some esteem for not stooping to the tactics used then.
>>>
>>> % I also love the victimization here on your part. 'People disagree 
>>> with
>>> me. In fact whole groups are out to get me. I'm a victim of them. 
>>> Boo Hoo.'.
>>> I don't think I've ever resorted to that sort of tactic about 
>>> groups, though
>>> there are individuals who quite gleefully disagree with me 
>>> vehemently. Ask
>>> Don Granberry for details :)
>>>
>>> Just as an aside, the Knights of the Black Rose and the Church of Ranko
>>> and Ryouga still haven't found reason to be upset with me. Give me a
>>> few weeks; I'll find something. ^_^
>>>
>>> Now, for those who demand explanation... I apologize if this comes in
>>> one letter; there's too much to answer everyone one letter at a time.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is canon.
>>>
>>> % No, it isn't. (See below)
>>>
>>> The extremism of Amazon law comes glaring through
>>> from Shampoo's first appearance;
>>>
>>> % I can't ever recall it taken seriously in the series, though. I 
>>> guess you
>>> can say it sort of is in Shampoo's first story arc, but after that 
>>> no one
>>> acts like its glaringly extreme after it, especially the Amazons in
>>> question. And yes, this is after reading the series. None of the R1/2
>>> characters act like its anything to worry about (you think Cologne 
>>> would
>>> have tried *something* to force the issue if it was so deadly 
>>> important)
>>> Outside of the her first appearance and the Reversal Jewel arc, 
>>> (which was
>>> Ranma putting a noose around his own neck) she doesn't, and actually 
>>> helps
>>> him at times. And it was never depicted that the law has people 
>>> going on the
>>> homicidal rampage Nick describes (this is in reference to 'No Dominion'
>>> BTW.)
>>>
>>>   Shampoo's potential for demolition
>>> comes through both at the beginning and at the end.
>>>
>>> % Well, demolition, sure. But all of the fighting characters are 
>>> like that.
>>> So I agree.
>>>
>>> The idea that
>>> Cologne dunked Shampoo as punishment is simple: the ghoul had to have
>>> known about Jusenkyo's properties. Sending her there for retraining
>>> could mean only one thing.
>>>
>>>
>>> % That she didn't know what the cursed springs actually did. That is 
>>> also
>>> easily interpeted from the source material. So while I actually am more
>>> inclined to agree with Nick that it was outright punishment, I 
>>> disagree with
>>> there being more than one interpetation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As to whether Shampoo threatens Ranma in 38
>>> for her own purpose or on Kiima's orders is a matter of debate;
>>>
>>> % True. I lean toward the idea that while you are under someone's mind
>>> control, and once released from it your actions immidiately change, 
>>> that you
>>> probably weren't operating in your right mind before that. It might 
>>> have
>>> also have been free will. So I don't argue that.
>>>
>>> personally, I don't care, as long as both possibilities are there.
>>> Sure, the portrayal in this work isn't flattering to Shampoo;
>>>
>>> % In the same sense decapitation is 'sort of a wound'. She's solely
>>> depicted as a source of pure unadulterated evil who deserves the 
>>> fate of
>>> being left in a heap of broken bones. Yes, the fact this is all done 
>>> from
>>> Akane's POV is a limiting factor. Nonetheless we are given no other
>>> possibility that Akane's POV is anything other than correct, so the 
>>> reader
>>> is forced to assume it is. There is nothing to imply 'reading 
>>> between the
>>> lines' needs to be happening.
>>>
>>> given
>>> what's gone before, could you ever see Akane seeing Shampoo in a 
>>> totally
>>> favorable light?
>>>
>>> % Let's see, Mousse tried to turn her into a duck in his first 
>>> appearance,
>>> yet she  bore no grudge. She's been kidnapped, drugged, attacked, held
>>> hostage, embrarresed, humiliated, and a host of other bad things 
>>> happen to
>>> her at nearly every adversarial characters hands multiple times 
>>> throughout
>>> the series. Held grudges against any of them? No. Her forgiving 
>>> nature is
>>> one of her most favorable character traits. So absolutely: it's what 
>>> she
>>> does. It's almost as much a part of her as Ranma's competitive 
>>> streak is to
>>> him. The idea that you find her ability to forgive Shampoo in a 
>>> favorable
>>> light after Mount Phoenix astounding makes me wonder how close you 
>>> actually
>>> read the series yourself. It's absolutely in her character and the 
>>> pattern
>>> she's followed to date.
>>>
>>> % Now let me add if Nick wants to say the bombed wedding was the 
>>> straw that
>>> broke the camel's back on Akane forgiving everyone all the time, I can
>>> believe that with very little  character twisting. But citing her 
>>> holding a
>>> grudge as part of a 'canon' argument? Ah, no. I don't buy it.
>>>
>>>
>>> The argument has come up from those who concede the canon argument that
>>> 'wouldn't it be better if it wasn't in, or if J. Random Character did
>>> it?' My answer is, simply, no. Conflict happens; it what develops
>>> characters. No conflict means shallow characters.
>>>
>>> % One of the points I raised is that this is not conflict. There is no
>>> tension. Everything is pointed out after the fact. It's has all the 
>>> conflict
>>> of a passing remark. It does not deepen Akane in the slightest. 
>>> Every bit of
>>> Shampoo could have been cut (just as Kodachi is never mentioned in the
>>> entire piece), and no one would have felt anything was missing from 
>>> the fic.
>>>
>>>   Besides, some sort
>>> of climax must be reached with the fiancees regardless. That's the
>>> powderkeg the characters are dancing on; once Ranma makes up his mind,
>>> it's going to explode.
>>> And, with the ingredients listed above, the
>>> possibility of Shampoo seeking Akane's life is quite possible.
>>>
>>> % Except, (and here's the most damning part of your whole 'but it's 
>>> canon'
>>> argument which you rely so heavily upon.) We know *exactly * what would
>>> happen if Ranma tried to marry Akane: It's called vol 38. Yes, 
>>> Takahashi
>>> wrote it out (albeit, an unsuccessful attempt at a wedding) but  an 
>>> attempt
>>> nontheless. So we know how the characters react to the situation, 
>>> having
>>>   you know, gone through it once already. What you wrote was not 
>>> remotely it.
>>> Shampoo did not turn into the homicidal maniac trying to decapitate 
>>> Akane
>>> right in front of Ranma  you depicted. She bombed it, right 
>>> alongside the
>>> curiously absent Ukyou from your story, with a decided lack of 
>>> fatalities or
>>> even maimings. Damaged Ranma, but  Ukyou was helping Shampoo with 
>>> it, and
>>> combined they still didn't do any more damage to him than when Ryouga
>>>   learns a new technique.
>>>
>>> % So Nick, you changed things drastically from the canon. Of course,
>>> ooddles of fanfic  does this (boy, have I ever  done it). Hell, it 
>>> would be
>>> boring if everyone wrote the same thing over and over again. What 
>>> one of the
>>> goals as a writer to do when changing it though is to provide an 
>>> explanation
>>> to the reader why these changes occurred. Good writers do this (with 
>>> varying
>>> degrees of success at times, myself included) bad writers don't, or 
>>> fail
>>> miserably at it. I can see a number or scenarios that take Shampoo 
>>> down the
>>> path you want: You used none of them. There is no explanation for the
>>> changes: she just turns  homicidal and it's treated as though it's 
>>> perfectly
>>> normal for her (yes, Akane's tone does  indicate this, as does her 
>>> hatred of
>>> Shampoo in every instance you use her). Yes, the POV you used limits 
>>> things,
>>> but as a writer, a good one, you have to at least try to explain it 
>>> and you
>>> seemed astounded anyone would feel you need to. And no, saying 
>>> "there's a
>>> really good reason for the change, I just can't bother to explain it 
>>> to you'
>>> is not a valid technique. It's a cop out. If anything, that could be 
>>> used
>>> for any seeming OOC behavior in a story which would make even the 
>>> worst of
>>> writers not bother with explaining the personality change. Just 
>>> assure the
>>> reader there's an off camera reason and move on with Soun having sex 
>>> with
>>> Kunou.
>>>
>>> % As to many readers not raising an eyebrow to it. To a large degree 
>>> it's
>>> fanfic convention and a lot of bias (Aside: You want to see irrational
>>> hatred of a character folks? Check out some of the venomous bile 
>>> slung in
>>> the archive's earlier days in various Shampoo threads. A lot of them 
>>> are
>>> writers that were' big names' at the time, so you can see where fanfic
>>> convention shaped a lot of biases.), which you followed to a 'T'. 
>>> DNR/DNU
>>> was one of the earliest works that established this pattern and many 
>>> writers
>>> followed until people use it as a guideline more than the actual vol 
>>> 38.
>>> What I would have loved to see was Ukyou in that role of homicidal 
>>> wedding
>>> crasher. Of course that would have raised a hue and cry, and not 
>>> just the
>>> fans of her. In fact, you could have actually provided Akane 
>>> explaining the
>>> behavior with something along the lines of:
>>>
>>> "Akane looked down at the battered chef. Apparently after living three
>>> quarters of her life fixating on Ranma and seeing her chance at him 
>>> really
>>> and truly lost, she had finally snapped. Akane rubbed her throat at 
>>> what the
>>> very sharp blade of that spatula had almost done to her.
>>>
>>> % I not only changed the character with no problem, I provided a 
>>> reason for
>>> the behavior using Akane's POV in a couple of lines. Some readers 
>>> might not
>>> buy it, but at least it's an effort. Hell, it was easy and off the cuff
>>>
>>> One other thing: never tell me to pull my punches.
>>>
>>> % I don't know as anyone did that.
>>>
>>> As for it being bashing... DB knows my record; he should know better.
>>>
>>> % Clarfied above
>>>
>>> I'm generally known for giving flattering portrayals of the China Gang,
>>> especially Shampoo and Cologne.
>>>
>>> % Actually if I recall Nick's works that I did  read, no, no they 
>>> weren't.
>>> I suppose if the reader comes from the Bader school of 'I like Akane 
>>> just
>>> fine, as long as she's treated like the violent gorilla she is', it 
>>> might
>>> be. But as someone that does like the characters that was not the 
>>> impression
>>> I got.
>>>
>>> For him to even insinuate that what I
>>> wrote is bashing is beyond ludicrous. I should possibly ask for the
>>> removal of 'Borrowed Time'
>>>
>>> % I believe this is the one that gave her a 'gracious death', 
>>> because of
>>> Ranma's actions and nothing bad happened to him (I believe it 
>>> glossed over
>>> the fact when he defeated her 'officially' in the Reveral Jewel arc 
>>> he knew
>>> exactly what he was doing,)  Umm, yeah, that's really... favorable.
>>>
>>> % Actually no, it explains a lot. A whole lot. Even more than the 
>>> words you
>>> used earlier.
>>>
>>>   from the various archives out there; maybe
>>> then he can convince everyone that I'm actually out to slander 
>>> Shampoo's
>>> name.
>>>
>>> The possibility has come up from Nidoking that I should add some
>>> explanation in my work as to why Shampoo did it. At the risk of
>>> sounding rude, there are times when this tactic is acceptable, and 
>>> times
>>> when it's not.
>>>
>>> % When it's OOC behavior like this, yeah, you do need to or it's poor
>>> writing.
>>>
>>>
>>> This definitely falls in the latter,
>>>
>>> % Umm. No. It doesn't
>>>
>>> due both to
>>> elegance and to continuity of perspective. This is a story where less
>>> is more;
>>>
>>> % And cutting it entirely would have been making it less and it 
>>> turning out
>>> to be more: it wouldn't stick out like the sore thumb it is.
>>>
>>> adding some bit talking about the whys of it would stick out
>>> like an I-beam welded to the side of a Chevy pickup.
>>>
>>> % It actually does, hence why I mention it. And I'm not the only 
>>> one.  Of
>>> course you are under no compulsion to change a word: you're the 
>>> author and
>>> its your baby. I just didn't buy your explanations and found the 
>>> writing
>>> weak in regards to it. Pity.
>>>
>>> % I cut the rest because it was thank you's to others. was just 
>>> responding
>>> to these bits because, well, I didn't before. And now a bunch of 
>>> people will
>>> probably look up ND. to see what I was talking about. Heh.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Nick
>>>
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