[FFML] dredging up the old (reply to an ancient letter)

[mccrowe]

Oh DB, don't go down this road.  Reading the archives is fun, but sooner
rather than, later madness will consume you.  Madness, I say.

However, I do notice that Nick is still writing, in case you'd want to post
this as a No Dominion review on his ff.net site. :)

I haven't read the fic, but he might fire back with his TASS award for it.

-mccrowe

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 5:26 PM, DB Sommer <sommert at consolidated.net> wrote:

> Heh. In going through the old emails from *years* ago I realized I never
> replied to this missive from. I doubt there's enough interest to create any
> controversy, hopefully. But despite the years gone by I should have
> responded and am doing it now so it's not something I feel I left undone.
>
> Nick Leifker:orm
> [FFML] [critiques and other stuff] A most interesting day...
> From: Nicholas Leifker <nightelf at thekeep.org>
> Date: 2002-04-30 09:27:22+00:00
> View Raw
>
> Well. That was fun...
>
> Let's see. DB accuses me of bashing;
>
> % Actually I should have said 'the actions were identical to those of
> someone bashing a character'. Yes, there actually is a difference. And no, I
> was unable to discern the difference initially. Now I do. I would not call
> it bashing: just very poor writing when you're capable of better.
>
> moreover, he does so in such a way
> that I cannot honorably defend myself at first.
>
> % I always kind of wondered about that 'honorable' part, since Nick did a
> fine job of defending himself. I disagreed with nearly everything, but he
> did defend himself in an articulate manner. It could be I'm just not seeing
> something about it, though, so I'll concede him that.
>
>  And people wonder why I
> get upset...
>
> % No more than people wonder why i get upset :) I think we simply upset one
> another.
>
>
> (sigh) Oh, well. I don't care anymore. I've seen similar petty
> tactics used by Ukyouphiles and Akanephiles back in the days of Thy
> Inward Love, Bitter End, and Iris; it's just their form of little
> censorship, trying to get their versions of characters up regardless of
> canon.
>
> % Now this is... insulting. Very. I read the canon too. Your interpetation
> is stretched to say the least, in outright contrast to the source material
> in many places. Will get to your 'points' below that you mention. nice try
> though with the  'I have proof and you don't' tactic.
>
>  I'm just saddened to see it from a group of fans that I'd held
> in some esteem for not stooping to the tactics used then.
>
> % I also love the victimization here on your part. 'People disagree with
> me. In fact whole groups are out to get me. I'm a victim of them. Boo Hoo.'.
> I don't think I've ever resorted to that sort of tactic about groups, though
> there are individuals who quite gleefully disagree with me vehemently. Ask
> Don Granberry for details :)
>
> Just as an aside, the Knights of the Black Rose and the Church of Ranko
> and Ryouga still haven't found reason to be upset with me. Give me a
> few weeks; I'll find something. ^_^
>
> Now, for those who demand explanation... I apologize if this comes in
> one letter; there's too much to answer everyone one letter at a time.
>
> Yes, it is canon.
>
> % No, it isn't. (See below)
>
> The extremism of Amazon law comes glaring through
> from Shampoo's first appearance;
>
> % I can't ever recall it taken seriously in the series, though. I guess you
> can say it sort of is in Shampoo's first story arc, but after that no one
> acts like its glaringly extreme after it, especially the Amazons in
> question. And yes, this is after reading the series. None of the R1/2
> characters act like its anything to worry about (you think Cologne would
> have tried *something* to force the issue if it was so deadly important)
> Outside of the her first appearance and the Reversal Jewel arc, (which was
> Ranma putting a noose around his own neck) she doesn't, and actually helps
> him at times. And it was never depicted that the law has people going on the
> homicidal rampage Nick describes (this is in reference to 'No Dominion'
> BTW.)
>
>  Shampoo's potential for demolition
> comes through both at the beginning and at the end.
>
> % Well, demolition, sure. But all of the fighting characters are like that.
> So I agree.
>
> The idea that
> Cologne dunked Shampoo as punishment is simple: the ghoul had to have
> known about Jusenkyo's properties. Sending her there for retraining
> could mean only one thing.
>
>
> % That she didn't know what the cursed springs actually did. That is also
> easily interpeted from the source material. So while I actually am more
> inclined to agree with Nick that it was outright punishment, I disagree with
> there being more than one interpetation.
>
>
>
> As to whether Shampoo threatens Ranma in 38
> for her own purpose or on Kiima's orders is a matter of debate;
>
> % True. I lean toward the idea that while you are under someone's mind
> control, and once released from it your actions immidiately change, that you
> probably weren't operating in your right mind before that. It might have
> also have been free will. So I don't argue that.
>
> personally, I don't care, as long as both possibilities are there.
> Sure, the portrayal in this work isn't flattering to Shampoo;
>
> % In the same sense decapitation is 'sort of a wound'. She's solely
> depicted as a source of pure unadulterated evil who deserves the fate of
> being left in a heap of broken bones. Yes, the fact this is all done from
> Akane's POV is a limiting factor. Nonetheless we are given no other
> possibility that Akane's POV is anything other than correct, so the reader
> is forced to assume it is. There is nothing to imply 'reading between the
> lines' needs to be happening.
>
> given
> what's gone before, could you ever see Akane seeing Shampoo in a totally
> favorable light?
>
> % Let's see, Mousse tried to turn her into a duck in his first appearance,
> yet she  bore no grudge. She's been kidnapped, drugged, attacked, held
> hostage, embrarresed, humiliated, and a host of other bad things happen to
> her at nearly every adversarial characters hands multiple times throughout
> the series. Held grudges against any of them? No. Her forgiving nature is
> one of her most favorable character traits. So absolutely: it's what she
> does. It's almost as much a part of her as Ranma's competitive streak is to
> him. The idea that you find her ability to forgive Shampoo in a favorable
> light after Mount Phoenix astounding makes me wonder how close you actually
> read the series yourself. It's absolutely in her character and the pattern
> she's followed to date.
>
> % Now let me add if Nick wants to say the bombed wedding was the straw that
> broke the camel's back on Akane forgiving everyone all the time, I can
> believe that with very little  character twisting. But citing her holding a
> grudge as part of a 'canon' argument? Ah, no. I don't buy it.
>
>
> The argument has come up from those who concede the canon argument that
> 'wouldn't it be better if it wasn't in, or if J. Random Character did
> it?' My answer is, simply, no. Conflict happens; it what develops
> characters. No conflict means shallow characters.
>
> % One of the points I raised is that this is not conflict. There is no
> tension. Everything is pointed out after the fact. It's has all the conflict
> of a passing remark. It does not deepen Akane in the slightest. Every bit of
> Shampoo could have been cut (just as Kodachi is never mentioned in the
> entire piece), and no one would have felt anything was missing from the fic.
>
>  Besides, some sort
> of climax must be reached with the fiancees regardless. That's the
> powderkeg the characters are dancing on; once Ranma makes up his mind,
> it's going to explode.
> And, with the ingredients listed above, the
> possibility of Shampoo seeking Akane's life is quite possible.
>
> % Except, (and here's the most damning part of your whole 'but it's canon'
> argument which you rely so heavily upon.) We know *exactly * what would
> happen if Ranma tried to marry Akane: It's called vol 38. Yes, Takahashi
> wrote it out (albeit, an unsuccessful attempt at a wedding) but  an attempt
> nontheless. So we know how the characters react to the situation, having
>  you know, gone through it once already. What you wrote was not remotely it.
> Shampoo did not turn into the homicidal maniac trying to decapitate Akane
> right in front of Ranma  you depicted. She bombed it, right alongside the
> curiously absent Ukyou from your story, with a decided lack of fatalities or
> even maimings. Damaged Ranma, but  Ukyou was helping Shampoo with it, and
> combined they still didn't do any more damage to him than when Ryouga
>  learns a new technique.
>
> % So Nick, you changed things drastically from the canon. Of course,
> ooddles of fanfic  does this (boy, have I ever  done it). Hell, it would be
> boring if everyone wrote the same thing over and over again. What one of the
> goals as a writer to do when changing it though is to provide an explanation
> to the reader why these changes occurred. Good writers do this (with varying
> degrees of success at times, myself included) bad writers don't, or fail
> miserably at it. I can see a number or scenarios that take Shampoo down the
> path you want: You used none of them. There is no explanation for the
> changes: she just turns  homicidal and it's treated as though it's perfectly
> normal for her (yes, Akane's tone does  indicate this, as does her hatred of
> Shampoo in every instance you use her). Yes, the POV you used limits things,
> but as a writer, a good one, you have to at least try to explain it and you
> seemed astounded anyone would feel you need to. And no, saying "there's a
> really good reason for the change, I just can't bother to explain it to you'
> is not a valid technique. It's a cop out. If anything, that could be used
> for any seeming OOC behavior in a story which would make even the worst of
> writers not bother with explaining the personality change. Just assure the
> reader there's an off camera reason and move on with Soun having sex with
> Kunou.
>
> % As to many readers not raising an eyebrow to it. To a large degree it's
> fanfic convention and a lot of bias (Aside: You want to see irrational
> hatred of a character folks? Check out some of the venomous bile slung in
> the archive's earlier days in various Shampoo threads. A lot of them are
> writers that were' big names' at the time, so you can see where fanfic
> convention shaped a lot of biases.), which you followed to a 'T'. DNR/DNU
> was one of the earliest works that established this pattern and many writers
> followed until people use it as a guideline more than the actual vol 38.
> What I would have loved to see was Ukyou in that role of homicidal wedding
> crasher. Of course that would have raised a hue and cry, and not just the
> fans of her. In fact, you could have actually provided Akane explaining the
> behavior with something along the lines of:
>
> "Akane looked down at the battered chef. Apparently after living three
> quarters of her life fixating on Ranma and seeing her chance at him really
> and truly lost, she had finally snapped. Akane rubbed her throat at what the
> very sharp blade of that spatula had almost done to her.
>
> % I not only changed the character with no problem, I provided a reason for
> the behavior using Akane's POV in a couple of lines. Some readers might not
> buy it, but at least it's an effort. Hell, it was easy and off the cuff
>
> One other thing: never tell me to pull my punches.
>
> % I don't know as anyone did that.
>
> As for it being bashing... DB knows my record; he should know better.
>
> % Clarfied above
>
> I'm generally known for giving flattering portrayals of the China Gang,
> especially Shampoo and Cologne.
>
> % Actually if I recall Nick's works that I did  read, no, no they weren't.
> I suppose if the reader comes from the Bader school of 'I like Akane just
> fine, as long as she's treated like the violent gorilla she is', it might
> be. But as someone that does like the characters that was not the impression
> I got.
>
> For him to even insinuate that what I
> wrote is bashing is beyond ludicrous. I should possibly ask for the
> removal of 'Borrowed Time'
>
> % I believe this is the one that gave her a 'gracious death', because of
> Ranma's actions and nothing bad happened to him (I believe it glossed over
> the fact when he defeated her 'officially' in the Reveral Jewel arc he knew
> exactly what he was doing,)  Umm, yeah, that's really... favorable.
>
> % Actually no, it explains a lot. A whole lot. Even more than the words you
> used earlier.
>
>  from the various archives out there; maybe
> then he can convince everyone that I'm actually out to slander Shampoo's
> name.
>
> The possibility has come up from Nidoking that I should add some
> explanation in my work as to why Shampoo did it. At the risk of
> sounding rude, there are times when this tactic is acceptable, and times
> when it's not.
>
> % When it's OOC behavior like this, yeah, you do need to or it's poor
> writing.
>
>
> This definitely falls in the latter,
>
> % Umm. No. It doesn't
>
> due both to
> elegance and to continuity of perspective. This is a story where less
> is more;
>
> % And cutting it entirely would have been making it less and it turning out
> to be more: it wouldn't stick out like the sore thumb it is.
>
> adding some bit talking about the whys of it would stick out
> like an I-beam welded to the side of a Chevy pickup.
>
> % It actually does, hence why I mention it. And I'm not the only one.  Of
> course you are under no compulsion to change a word: you're the author and
> its your baby. I just didn't buy your explanations and found the writing
> weak in regards to it. Pity.
>
> % I cut the rest because it was thank you's to others. was just responding
> to these bits because, well, I didn't before. And now a bunch of people will
> probably look up ND. to see what I was talking about. Heh.
>
>
>
> -- Nick
>
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