[FFML] [C&C] Re: [Fanfic][Naruto] Suiren, Chapter 13: Wolves...

[Eimii]

>> I hope this doesn't sound like a load of BS justification. I really
>> don't want him to seem more powerful or important than he is, but he
>> actively tries to make _himself_ seem that way -_-;...
>
> Hmm.  I think, basically, part of the issue is that, so far, very little
> has happened that shows the reader that he's trying to seem more
> powerful than he is, so he comes off as actually seeming that important.

Hmm... bleh. From my point of view, there's plenty of opportunity for
that later, but i guess opinions differ -_-;...

>> They _are_ pretty one-sided, though. He's a hawk and an agitator, but
>> before the war he was relatively harmless, and even now he doesn't
>> have nearly enough men to be a credible threat. Konoha isn't afraid of
>> him, it's just easier to put up with his eccentricities than it would
>> be to eliminate him.
>
> "One-sided" wasn't quite the right word I guess; I meant it more in the
> sense that in the past couple chapters we've gotten a fair bit of Lord
> Haruno  (trying to seem) like he's always one step ahead, laying down
> the rules that the ninja have to follow, offering veiled and
> not-so-veiled insult, and so forth.  We haven't really seen much of the
> other side to show that Konoha's humoring him, that it's highly unusual
> for him to have something Konoha needs like this, and that sort of thing.

The two aren't mutually exclusive; he might actually be as ahead of
the game as he makes himself to be, but the stakes here really aren't
as high as they seem. If he refuses... Konoha really has to suck it up
and go to the capitol, risking a little loss of face, or cut the Fire
Country out of the loop entirely and risk looking like they don't
respect the government...

>
> It's a hard thing to balance and somewhat subjective.  My personal
> reaction is only one data point, and I don't claim it's any more valid
> than anyone else's.
>
> I think the thing that rubs me the wrong way the most is the idea that
> he can openly attack (and "kill") a Konoha ninja and expect to get away
> with it.  Even if he knows that its a Kage Bunshin - which is a little
> iffy itself - it's still a very important act, symbolically.  It's like
> reading about a Governor having a state trooper shoot at the US Army -
> even if he knew that they were wearing bulletproof vests that would stop
> them from being injured, it's the kind of thing that would have serious,
> irreversible consequences.
>
> The Fire Country is not the US, of course, but in Naruto's
> quasi-medieval society it seems like it would be just as or even more
> serious - typically I'd expect the culture to have a traditional
> emphasis on hospitality and protections for messengers and emissaries.
> I just can't see Konoha (or the Fire Daimyo, for that matter) tolerating
> that sort of behavior unless there's a good chance that Lord Haruno
> would _win_ the ensuing conflict.  So, in my mind at least, that goes a
> long way to making him actually appear a lot more powerful than I
> believe you want him to seem.

A few points to note:
-Konoha is an independent entity; it is a _mercenary_ organization
that is understood to work for anyone who can pay, up to and including
enemies of the state, provided that the price is right.
-It has been emphasized before that Lord Haruno is not very popular
with most of the ruling elite, but his position is one that the daimyo
cannot officially dismiss or reassign unless all of his heirs are
dead. Therefore, a lot of people would like it very much if he managed
to get himself offed by someone. There have been attempts, and none
this far have succeeded, because...
-Despite the fact that he couldn't possibly take Konoha in a straight
fight, his castle really is pretty secure. Konoha is aware of how hard
it would be to assassinate him, and the price they would demand for
his head is quite high, so he is not totally delusional in his
assessment of what he can and cannot get away. And, as we have seen in
the case of Hyuuga Higashi, Konoha is no stranger to sacrificing their
own for the 'greater good,' even if the other party is not acting in
good faith...

>
>> Given how quickly the high-level ninja on either side seemed to be
>> cutting each other down during the war, is it really so hard for
>> everyone to believe that a highly trained swordsman would be able to
>> get the drop on an infiltration/genjutsu specialist? Despite how the
>> main characters make it seem, sometimes people die really, really fast
>> in combat- like poor Hayate -_-;...
>
> The key difference, at least in my mind and I expect in many others, is
> that it was other high-level ninja who were doing the cutting down
> during the war.  Here, it's a non-ninja, even if it's a highly trained
> one, and I don't think it's generally expected by readers for a
> non-ninja to be a credible threat (without some supernatural power).
> Doubly so when it comes to sneaking up on and ambushing a ninja.

That is a 'not thinking very hard' argument to me. Given the examples
we've seen of rediculous feats of taijutsu alone, i see _no_ reason
why swordsmen can't be every bit as badass as ninja in this setting
-_-;...

Plus, he didn't really have to sneak anywhere; just leaned forward and
got on one foot, as if to stand up, and performed a sword-drawing
strike across the table.

>
> Kurenai may be an infiltration/genjutsu specialist, but she's still a
> full jounin, so the expectation is that she's awesome at infiltration
> and genjtusu but only really, really good at everything else.  I think
> the typical expectation in this situation is that she'd read something
> in Lord Haruno's body language, hear someone sneaking up behind her,
> sense the swordsman's killing intent, and then the swordsman decapitates
> a handy coat rack.

Well, there wouldn't have been anything to read in Lord Haruno's body
language; 'disposing' of her was arranged beforehand, so no sign was
given, and he's got a reasonably good poker face himself. With regard
to sensing his killing intent... There _is_ actually a reason why she
didn't sense it, and it is a major reason why properly trained samurai
are actually dangerous to ninja in Suiren. (zen) To samurai, the death
of the enemy is a natural result of drawing the sword, an event that
occurs without contemplation or premeditation (/zen), so, mechanically
speaking, many of the really good ones often emit little or no killing
intent, even at the moment of truth- or, at least, that's how i'm
working it for some of these guys...

>
>> Maybe i could do that, i suppose, but as small of a threat that he is,
>> he isn't _totally_ harmless. He hardly ever leaves his castle, where
>> he is (relatively) safe, but he can still do them a small amount of
>> political damage; for instance, he may now know the identity of a spy
>> that Konoha had in the Fire Country court. Konoha depends on their
>> good relationship with the Fire Country, and right now they won't want
>> to do anything to sour it- such as assassinating noblemen.
>
> Mmm... yes, but the general thrust of what I'm proposing is to
> explicitly establish that, the instant it _was_ worth the cost, Konoha
> could crush him.

I get that... but that threshold (and Konoha's tolerance of bullshit)
is actually pretty high. That's a hard thing to explicity state, given
the personalities involved. Kurenai has no illusions about how
expendable she is under the right circumstances...

>
>> The 'new elements' are have been kind of over-emphasized in this
>> chapter and the last, but i'm not sure how to remedy that without
>> having a lot of denigrating asides regarding the lord's 'true'
>> importance in the world.
>
> It doesn't need to be a lot of such asides; just one or two mentions or
> hints would go a long way.

There have been a few, actually, but i've probably been too subtle about it.

>
>> It seemed inappropriate to me for Hinata or
>> Sakura to belittle the man, and Kurenai has some valid political
>> worries on her plate...
>
> Hinata or Sakura, no, but it might fit to frame Kurenai's political
> worries in a way that denigrates him a bit.  (After all, she's plenty of
> reason to be upset with him at the moment.)  Perhaps something vaguely
> along the lines of "Kurenai wished that the current political situation
> let her properly respond to Lord Haruno's 'courtesy'..."

Well, that depends on Kurenai's personality; as someone who has worked
in the court, she's also probably aware that he has some reasonably
valid reasons for being upset with Konoha as well. Their very
existence is the death of his way of life, and the destruction of
everything he takes pride in. In general, how much disdain to you
picture the ninja of Konoha feeling toward the Fire Country's ruling
class?

>
> Anyway, at the end of the day, these are all just my suggestions.  Make
> of them what you will, and use them or not as you see fit.  :)

Given how much of a rare gem any sort of meaningful discussion is, I
feel kinda bad arguing so much about it =_=;...