--- John Garrett <johnny.gman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/27/06, Abdiel <gabriel_gabdiel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh great. Here we go again. Is this yet another replay of John Garrett's
"Aijou
& Aitou" where the fanfic suspiciously reads like CORK propaganda?
Wow, this is the first time that I've seen someone else use my story
as a comparison to show another author how not to write. I'm not sure
if I should feel flattered or insulted.
First of all, I apologize. Perhaps the CORK comment was inappropriate and
perhaps I should have never even used it as an example in the first place. I
have my reasons and justifications in using it (the ol' 'driving a point to the
ground' reason), but if it has inconvenienced you in any way, I am deeply
apologetic.
If you've been keeping track of my replies to all my C&C, then you'd know that
you're not alone in my backtracking to previous C&Cs I've made to make a point.
As to whether or not you should feel flattered or insulted, w-ell, that's your
jurisdiction. For my money, I have no malicious intent behind using your C&C as
an example, so don't sweat it. I know I wouldn't.
Besides, just to clarify, 'Church of Ranma and Kasumi Propaganda' is mostly a
recurring joke anyway (like, say, my Antvasima cracks whenever Nabiki is
featured in an unflattering or flattering light... or featured at all :P).
After all, I particularly loved 'Kasumi and Spice and Everything Nice' by Anand
Rao, and that's CORK Propaganda if I ever saw one (hehehe... before I could
make it better, here I am referencing another fic and making it worse...).
I mean, I know better than
anyone just how many problems there are with Aijou & Aitou, but to
have someone else use it like this is... different I guess.
(shrugs) Don't feel so special. Or, if you must, go ahead. ^_^; Everybody is a
unique little snowflake. :P
Of course, I distinctly remember the scathing comments you made on
Chapter 20 of Aijou & Aitou over a year ago. I also remember that I
thanked you for them and tried to get into a discussion with you
regarding certain points you brought up. However, you completely
ignored my attempt at communication. I found that particularly
strange since the following line was part of the critique:
"If you can justify the way Kasumi and Ranma acted as 'not at all OOC,
but completely believable', then by all means, I want to hear it. If
you think that the label 'Character Worship bordering Author Avatar
fanfic' is misappropriated here and a bit much when describing what I
see as your fic's faults, then I'll love it if you'd explain why, if
you want to. Or not. It's still cool."
Now hold on a minute. I still have, in fact, your reply to my C&C in my hard
disk. Actually, there are several reasons why I have didn't reply. No. 1 on
that list would have to be 'pointless character debates'. As my spiffy 'new'
disclaimer states, my opinions are just opinions. Second reason is that my main
task in C&Cing is to help out the author. The last thing an author needs is a
long thread regarding his take on a character as opposed to my take on a
character. Though, if you really do desire further discussion, I'm game. But
your reply seemed quite succinct enough at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the gist of your reply at the time was, "It's anime-based, not really
manga-based, and even though Takahashi would probably make the characters react
differently to the way I would portray them and they probably are OOC on that
regard, the way I made them react is the way I truly believe they would react
given the situation."
Just for reference, here's part of your actual reply. And I quote:
"By the way, you mentioned the manga several times. I believe I
included it at the top, but if I didn't, let me reiterate. This is in
the anime continuity. You have to remember that many of the things
that forced the characters to grow up a little more in the manga never
occurred in the anime. Nodoka only showed up in the last two
episodes, meaning she had practically no interaction with Ranma.
There was no Herb, Ryu Kumon or Shinnosuke (since this was anime only
and no OAVs or movies) to help the characters (especially Ranma and
Akane) grow. More importantly, the events of Phoneix Mountain never
happened. If you look at the characters at the end of the anime, they
aren't all that different then how they started out. So do I believe
that my characters are OOC? Well, I'm sure Takahashi would've had
them act differently based on the situation I placed them in. Also, I
think I'm stretching the characters much father than the cardboard
cutouts they turned into in the anime (I hadn't read the manga when I
began writing this). So in that sense, yes they are probably OOC.
However, I think that what I've done is a natural progression for
them. You are welcome to disagree of course. This is how I truly
believe they would react in this situation. Is it right or wrong?
Who's to say? Again, the area of character development past the end
of the series is one of those things open to interpretation. If you
read the previous chapters, I can only hope that you'll see that I
attempted to bring the characters to the point they're at, and didn't
simply start having them act this way."
As you can see, your holla back was composed of a lot of rhetorical (read:
doesn't really need answers) questions. And the questions that aren't
rhetorical, I feel like there really isn't much I can do to answer them at the
time I first read your reply. I understand your justifications. I don't
particularly agree with all of them, but they are logically sound as far as
justifications are concerned; meaning, what else can I add to them? Not much,
though I'm not surprised why you'd be on the defensive every time I comment
that your fic is 'CORK Propaganda'. Well, yours is a very sound defense, and my
lack of a reply simply means that I accepted most of your points and I have,
more or less, agreed to disagree with you.
Also, here's another little snippet from your earlier reply:
"In regards to your comments regarding this being a "Kasumi-worship"
fic, as the author I guess it's hard for me to step back and be
objective about it. My goal was never to make Kasumi perfect, though
I can certainly see why you would think so based on your comments.
There honestly isn't a whole lot I can do about it in this story,
since I don't intend to go back and re-write everything, however I do
promise to keep your comments in mind for future stories. By that, I
don't just mean Ranma stories, but for any genre I write in. I will
try to point out the good and bad of all characters (some of which I
did with Kasumi early on, though probably not as much as you'd like)
and try not to focus on a single one too much."
Same as always, I felt that that reply needed no further response from me. If
you feel that it's hard for you to feel objective about it, that's totally your
choice (i.e., not my problem). No amount of complaints from me can fix that;
there's not much more we can do about that. You have no intention of re-writing
anything? Good, 'coz I wouldn't recommend it. But I guess all those reasons of
mine to not reply aren't really valid excuses: I should have replied at least
to the fact that you'll keep in mind my comments in the future. Believe me,
it's very much appreciated.
When I responded to you, I did it to you directly, as opposed to the
entire list. Perhaps you never check that particular email box, or
perhaps you simply didn't care. However, if you say you're interested
in hearing explanations, then I think it would be prudent to respond
to them when given to provide your own counterpoints (that's my
opinion at least). Unless, of course, you feel they're not worth
responding to and thus beneath your time.
O_O Dude, I liked your earlier reply to me better. Less drama. (ahem) I admit
that I can be a bit scathing in my replies, so much so that I've had _Lurker_
congratulate me on a particularly, well, scathing reply. Still, I'm usually
harsh to be kind. You may not see it that way, but at least that's the
intention. I reply to those fics that, to the best of my knowledge (which isn't
saying much), receives the least amount of attention in the FFML. But I'm no
saint, because my hidden agenda in replying to fics is 'coz I want to learn to
write fics too; and I enjoy replying to boot. B-ut if you really, really,
_really_ want to hear my counterpoints in regards to your story, here's my
little "soapbox of 'rage'".
**********************************************************************************
Soapbox: It's funny how you've not included the OAVs and the films just so that
you can justify your fanficcy changes. Thing is, even if you _only_ use the
anime as basis for your fic, contrary to popular belief, there are quite a lot,
and I mean _quite_ a lot of episodes in the anime that deal specifically with
the underlying relationships and portrayals of the characters that highlights
my points in both my C&C of Aijou and Aitou and Pursuit of Happiness quite
well. There's simply no excuse for it. Many of the things that 'forced' (puh)
the characters to grow up in the manga _are_ in the anime. For example, in
episode 45, "Ranma goes back to Jusenkyou at last," Ranma actually dreams of
having children with Akane. Then, in episode 84, "Ranma the Lady-killer", Ranma
was able to admit that Akane's cute without the use of the magical band-aid
that made him such a Lady-killer in the first place (and this was after Akane
became upset with him... _anime_ upset). Then there's episode 105, "A Christmas
without Ranma," which has Akane worrying and looking for Ranma after he told
her to go on ahead without him while they were shopping. A little while later,
she learns that he had been shopping gifts for her, which made her very happy.
Can't get any cloyingly sweet than that.
All these episodes (and more... these are just the three I came up with after
randomly skimming DVDs) clearly contend your claims that Akane and Ranma
weren't really growing maturely, such that Ranma would suffer (wince)
"Akane-phobia". They don't need a Ryu Kumon, a Shinnosuke, or a Phoenix
Mountain to be 'forced' to grow and mature. These things merely showed what was
already developing underneath in the first place. It's not the big things, but
the little things that made their relationship progress. Besides, how can you
even use that contention to justify Ryoga's characterization in your fic? He
_sees_ Akane is at fault why her relationship with Ranma failed; isn't that the
fanfic _forcing_ Ryoga to grow up (in an IMO contrived manner, might I add)
that's waaaay off-tangent to how he'd normally develop as a person? But this
isn't really just about Ranma and Akane, right?
Let's now talk about Kasumi. The thing that irks me about Ranma's relationship
with Kasumi, aside from her IMO inapt childishness, is how she throws out the
whole concept of her being bored by younger men. I'm okay with Kasumi-Ranma
fics, but in _my_ case (and your opinions will most probably vary on this) I'd
rather read about a fic that has _Ranma_ mature so that he could date in
Kasumi's level. _Your_ fic, I believe, went for the opposite and had Kasumi
drop into Ranma's level of maturity. Also, getting back on the "She's going to
hit me! OMG! All women are like Akane! AHHH!!!" thought that Ranma had when he
accidentally got some b00bz0r action on Kasumi, well, such thoughts aren't the
right thoughts for Ranma at the time. It instead should be, "OMG! I touched
Kasumi! This is wrong! WRONG!" based on how he acts around Kasumi (big sister
type) and based on how violently he'd react if he had done this act on, say,
his mother. The added plus to that is that we'd get rid of the "All women are
like Akane! AHHH!!!" reaction which I've never really seen happen in your
precious anime. Ever. Ranma may cry a lot at times, but he isn't so wimpy as to
think that way. Jeez.
Now, just because your portrayal's different doesn't mean that it's wrong. But
you can take my word for it when I say it's _wrong for me_. I don't quite like
how you've characterized Kasumi. I do not like the idea of her acting so
motherly one minute, then acting so... so... puerile the next. Not at all. If
there are people like you who say, "What'cha talkin 'bout, Willis? Kasumi is
completely in-character in Aijou and Aitou. Now shut your mouth, fool!" more
power to you. I don't agree with any of you, but more power to all of you.
Another point of contention is that the anime _is_ manga-based, so about half
(can't be sure) of its episodes, even with all the revisions intact, is still
based on Takahashi's grand design. Easily, episode 16, "Shampoo's Revenge! The
Shiatsu that Steals Heart and Soul" (based on Volume 4, Part 19 of the manga)
comes to mind when I want to debate your 'Akane-phobia', and your "She's going
to hit me! OMG! All women are like Akane! AHHH!!!" The oft-remembered story arc
lays quite a lot on the groundwork of Akane and Ranma's relationship: Ranma
would do anything for Akane to remember her, to notice her, and ironically his
comfort zone of teasing her is the very thing that saves the day.
'Akane-phobia' indeed... Being beaten up from time to time is worth it to
Ranma, just as long as Akane gives him the time of day. I guess there are some
people out there asking, 'But wouldn't the teasing affect Akane, such that
she'd do something grievous like what she did in Episode 92, "Nabiki, Ranma's
New Fiancee"(based on Volume 17, Part 5 of the manga)? Not so, if the events in
Episode 111, "Ukyo's Secret Sauce" (based on Volume 19, Part 4 of the manga) is
to be believed; Akane admitted to not really be hurt with Ranma's teasing and,
in a roundabout way, admitted that she doesn't really hate him. Besides, in the
ending of the aforesaid Episode 92, it showed the very growth in Ranma and
Akane's relationship that you say they lack. Rest assured that there were no
Shinnosukes and Herbs (and Spices) there. And let's not forget the special
Sakura Mochi in Episode 131, "Wretched Rice Cakes of Love" where Ranma was
willing to lie to Akane just to keep her happy with the delusion that they were
meant to be. :P All of these (and again, many, many more) episodes have these
common elements of growth present, which lays the groundwork for most of my
contentions on Aijou and Aitou. I cite the manga because there's a lot of manga
in the anime. To have your characters act incredibly different based on a few
exaggerations found in the anime is to disregard a whole batch of the anime
that _is_ grounded on the manga. I perfectly know that Akane and Ranma far,
far, FAR from being the perfect couple, but there's some groundwork in there
somewhere, even in the often-criticized anime... sans movies and OAVs. 9_9
Enough groundwork to justify throwing out Ranma's Akane-phobia, wimpiness, and
(for the heck of it) his New Yorker accent. For the simple fact that it's
annoying and I forever curse the Viz dub for prompting fanfic writers to write
Ranma's dialogue in that nearly-unreadable way.
As a btw, I said Mousse helping Shampoo can never happen in the manga. Well,
dude, it can never happen in the anime either. Even more so, because Shampoo
somewhat returns Mousse's feelings there (as opposed to the manga, where
Shampoo doesn't).
In my humble opinion, the fic isn't so much 'anime-based' as it is, say,
select-episodes-of-the-anime-based and fanfic-based. I do believe that Aijou
and Aitou only makes use of fanon memetics and fandom-derived misconceptions
instead of even the slightest bit of anime canon. But that's just me. Sorry to
say, but that's how I view it, and you're welcome to disagree. Whether or not I
reply to any dissenting response from you, rest assured that I have thoroughly
read it and given it due consideration.
**********************************************************************************
...But, honestly, now that I've presented my counterpoints, is this really of
_much_ help to you? Aside from helping _me_ let all that out of my chest, does
this really help in making a better Aijou and Aitou? Doesn't these replies
merely fuel your desire to debate my points and argue them until the cows go
home instead of, say, going with what you know and writing more Aijou and Aitou
for your adoring fans in both CORK and in the FFML? Am I really worth the
effort, when instead you can concentrate your energies to more positive output?
By positive output, I mean most anything that doesn't devolve into megabytes
worth of spam and doesn't really amount to anything or help your fic writing
and the list at large.
Anyhow, I would still love to open a discussion regarding some of your
perceptions of the Ranma characters, and perhaps even open it to the
whole list if it isn't against the rules. I'd like to still address
some of the points you brought up so long ago, as well as some of the
ones you brought up here. However, I don't want to waste the time if
you're not going to bother to respond. Let me know.
If you really want to and if you think my opinions of the characters are worth
discussing about, then sure... Let's do it. If you think it's really going to
help you write Aijou and Aitou better, then I'm all for it. I'm willing to
discuss. But if you're merely on the defensive and protecting your fic's
reputation from any more of my "CORK Propaganda" comments, (and since you're
not really going to make a full re-write... and I don't encourage you to), then
I suggest we don't continue this. I'll just promise to play nice and not do
that thing that makes you either insulted or flattered. I've seen too many
character debate threads devolve to... unmentionable stuff such that I'd rather
not be involved in a character debate if I can help it. Unless it really does
help, but I have yet to see a character debate that really helped an author...
save for the occasional spamfic, fanfic idea, and the propagation of a rather
persistent fanon meme.
I already understand where you're coming from in regards to your earlier reply
to me. I appreciate an 'alternative' viewpoint on the characters, even though I
don't (and probably never will) necessarily agree with it. Basing Kasumi on
your wife, I can't even argue with that. Dude, that's your personal experience;
no amount of whining from me can change that. That is your truth. So for
goodness's sake, can you just keep on writing? ^^;
Best,
~JohnnyG
Hanggang sa muli,
Abdiel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is weird. I sent one C&C, and I'm replying to another...
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
.---Anime/Manga Fanfiction Mailing List----.
| Administrators - ffml-admins@anifics.com |
| Unsubscribing - ffml-request@anifics.com |
| Put 'unsubscribe' in the subject |
`---- http://ffml.anifics.com/faq.txt -----'