Bert Miller wrote:

    You know, this is what I've missed.  Conversations like this really 
show that people's imaginations are engaged by the story.  It's clear, 
Bert, that you've put a lot of thought into trying to get behind what's 
going on here, and I'm glad to see that.  If it weren't for the fact 
that it'd spoil the story, I'd go into more detail on the matters you 
discuss, but for now, let's just go with things as they're presented, 
shall we?

Mark MacKinnon wrote:
 

Bert Miller wrote:

   

 Could Hild have
misinterpreted Illianka's breaking of the hyperlinks
as the total destruction of all else?
     

  Hild and Illianka believe pretty much the same thing, actually; 
that this world alone remains of all that once were.  Remember, 
Illianka gave her life in breaking the remaining hyperlinks, an act 
that she believed would protect this world from the disaster that was 
destroying all the others.  Hild believes that Illianka succeeded, as, 
in fact, she did.  What none of the survivors of that ancient battle 
seem to realise is that all the worlds outside were NOT destroyed.  
The question that remains is: why weren't they, if Illianka and all 
these gods were so sure they were already lost?
   

...because the breaking of the hyperlinks was itself the means by which 
the other spheres were preserved (is the logical conclusion).  Meaning 
that the disaster which seemed to be destroying all that is (or at least 
all spheres that were connected to the hyperlink network) was emanating 
from... (eep) ... here.

"...to where the Truth is hidden away" - Illianka

She wasn't kidding.
 

    Not much of a kidder.  Hell of a rhymer, though.  As to your 
speculation on the reason for breaking the links, that will become 
clearer in the next chapter (when many questions will finally be 
answered!).  But if the cause of the disaster was here, then she didn't 
so much lock the monster out as lock it in.  That could get ugly.

The defeat of 
Dasma and her most powerful priestesses meant the loss of the most 
powerful Shadow magicks, leaving Shadow Realm virtually inviolate from 
mortal incursion for over a century.  Could that also have served 
Wynneth's plans?  Hmmmm ...
   

If Wynneth manipulated Hild into manipulating Dasma and Alieva into 
fighting, that throws my theory about the identity of the Voice into a 
cocked hat.  It isn't yet clear that Wynneth needed Shadow Realm 
inviolate from mortal incursion for any reason, although it's certainly 
clear in this chapter that the loss of Shadow Magic in general use 
served Wynneth's purposes big time.  So why would Wynneth want no 
mortals to enter Shadow?  I don't think we know of a persuasive reason 
yet; just making succubi and incubi excessively hungry doesn't seem enough.
 

    Certainly true.  If we go a bit further and speculate whether she 
might have been responsible for getting the succubi and incubi exiled 
there in the first place, it would certainly seem as though she were 
making the place as inhospitable as possible to humans.  Mind you, she 
does use Shadow Magick, and Shadow Realm has allowed her to dispatch her 
wraiths with impunity to just about any place imaginable, granting her a 
great tactical advantage, so she clearly has an interest in keeping 
Shadow a mystery to mortal powers.  And remember, without Shadow users 
the world has suffered in certain areas; the Queen, for instance, was 
unable to maintain Shadow Wards within the palace, another plus in the 
long run for our girl Wynneth.  She takes a long view, all right, which 
leads us to ...

Wynneth's musings in this chapter certainly seem to push her age back 
quite a ways.  The senshi seemed to think a vampire who'd "seen the fall 
of the Genrous with its own eyes", perhaps 2000 years ago, was ancient 
and scarily powerful.  Wynneth seems to be several times that old at a 
minimum; indeed, you seem to be hinting that she saw the Silver 
Millenium with her own eyes.  If it was Wynneth herself, and not the 
Voice, who gave Dasma the ability to put the rose on the Black Rose's 
breast, then the Voice, significantly more powerful yet, must also be 
much older than I've been allowing for.  Hmm... someone sneakier (and 
older?) than any of the gods or demons, perhaps with a grudge against 
all of them... who could it be?
 

    Wynneth's power is far greater than anything previously seen in a 
vampire.  Remember, Rei was stunned that Wynneth could not only summon 
wraiths and send them out in daylight, but also to manifest her power 
and presence through one at mid-day.  If she is that much older than 
Demetias, the vamps' leader during the Long Dark, then she may very well 
be, by all accounts, also that much more powerful.  And that is 
something nobody has had to deal with before.  A vampire goddess, indeed.

    You suspect it was Wynneth who gave the lore of the Black Rose to 
the Sisterhood?  She very well could have, but only if it benefited her 
in some way.  Or that could have been someone else.   Hmmm.  Time will 
tell.

  Handy, yes.  But are you implying that it's so handy as to be 
suspiciously convenient?
   

No real necessity for Gar to have caused the accident.  He only need 
have been on the lookout for occasions to infiltrate the palace, heard 
of the accident, and seized his chance.  Or even possibly have 
impersonated a member of the dead family as a lark, on a momentary whim, 
for all we know, although he did say, in chapter 18, that he was 
following a prophecy.
 

    Indeed.  I just wondered if you were suggesting that Gar caused the 
incident as a way to give himself an "in" into the palace.  Garven d'Or 
WAS known as a hero, at least by legend, but legends are not always 
accurate.  In fact, rarely might be a better term.  So far, though, it 
seems more likely he capatilised on the opportunity rather than caused it.

  The Underlords were not superceded by the Wardens, though, at least 
not in this world (unless you're referring to the takzvyrmishammir and 
the like in general). The Underlords may have been this world's 
version of gods, in much the same way as the Norse pantheon (Peorth 
and the others) were gods in their world.  At the very least they were 
powerful beings, although whether they were good, evil, or something 
in between and just how they used their power in conjunction with the 
peoples of Gaia is really a mystery, largely because of the efforts of 
the new gods.  Remember, Illianka was the last Warden, and she died in 
the event that stranded the gods in this sphere.  The gods were the 
ones who decided, for whatever reason, to drive the local pantheon 
out.  Were the gods somehow threatened by the mere existence of the 
Underlords?  Hmmmm ...
   

This isn't quite how I'd understood the sequence of events.  Illianka 
died in Godwar, at which time the Eye was also blinded, and the gods 
(and demons) stranded in this sphere; this much has all been pretty 
clear all along.  I'd understood, however, the gods to have arrived in 
this sphere significantly earlier yet, made Nemesis their home, and 
presumably driven the Underlords out when they first arrived.  Godwar 
arose, I'd understood, as a dispute between factions of the gods, or 
between gods and demons, primarily in this sphere.  Granted, my 
understanding was formed primarily in Chapter 9, as narrated by Rei and 
Ami, and the understanding of even the best-versed mortals might be 
quite distorted in this day and age.  I suppose I really ought to 
re-read everything again, paying closer attention to who is giving us 
each bit of information and how likely each POV character is to really 
know what went on.
 

    POV is important, definitely, since there are mysteries not known to 
most people, who are forced to rely on legend and supposition.  But to 
clarify things, Godswar does refer to the conflict between factions of 
the gods that led to the sealing of AsterGate and the rise of the Silver 
Millenium.  It is not, however, the conflict that cost Illianka her 
life.  That earlier conflict involved the worlds outside of this sphere 
and resulted in this group of gods being trapped here; those gods then 
supplanted the Underlords and began to rule the world of man, until the 
time of Godswar.  Then the winners of that conflict abandoned Nemesis 
and sealed their new home, the realm of Nikhien, away from the world of 
men.  Only a few gods did not join them there, although legend is 
unclear on whether they refused to join or were cast out.  What Rei and 
Ami knew through legend did not take into account the existence of other 
spheres, the true origin of the gods they know, or the fact that they 
had become trapped here in a sphere which was not their home.  With 
chapters being released so far apart, it's only natural to be fuzzy on 
details like that.  Maybe I should finally do up a rough 
timeline/history of some sort to help keep things straight.

    Also, the term "gods" gets tossed around quite a bit, but we've 
already seen that it is far from a useful term here.  The norse pantheon 
were gods who ended up serving the Wardens and their cause in one way 
(mostly, it seems, as patron goddesses of their great ships).  The 
beings who crewed those ships and ended up as the gods of Gaia must also 
be powerful, although whether more powerful than Peorth and her ilk is 
still unclear.  And the Underlords?  They were beings of power, although 
they ultimately lost to the new gods and were cast out.  Even the 
Genrous had power that held the few gods still in the world at bay.  So 
gods are not all-powerful by any means, and the levels and ranges of 
their power seems to be fairly wide.  It's something that I've kept in 
the background because it's not really the focus of the story, but it 
should be kept in mind.  There are forces and entities in this world who 
are not named as gods but still possess great power, great enough 
perhaps to match that of a god.  This world remains, in some ways, a 
wild and unpredictable place.

Queen's thought, is that it came from Desidinder,
but she doesn't say so.  It might equally well
have come from Crimson Thorn.
     

  The Queen may not have been naming something particularly, though.  
Nameless might merely have been an appellation referring to the 
Underlords.  The Underlords have no names, remember.  And they have 
left behind a vengeful legacy, spoiled power, curlded and wildly 
destructive magicks.  As for Galiraithe, the sword's origin has not 
been specified, but Crimson Thorn is a good possibility (better when 
you consider that nobody seems able to approach Desidinder).
   

Oh, this Nameless is one of the "curdled magics", gotcha.  Now, I had a 
theory about these, too.  Were there, perhaps, five of these at one 
point?  With three now remaining?  If so, this is probably the Blue one, 
given what we know of where the storm came from ("a rogue spin-off...in 
the southern islands").
 

    There have been earlier hints as to where this might have 
originated, yes.  Are you right on the money here?  That will be made 
clear next chapter, too.  So stay tuned.

Mark

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