From: Nicholas Leifker <nightelf@thekeep.org>
Date: 2004/05/28 Fri PM 06:20:32 GMT
To: <thermopyle@tds.net>
CC: <ffml@anifics.com>
Subject: Re: [FFML] Re: [Fanfic][Ranma/SM] Relatively Absent: Chapter 9


Before I start, a little note to DB:

If "critical C&C" is like this, it's pretty obvious why Mark would get 
upset.  The critique is so far out there that it leaves me wondering if 
Thermo was reading the same story.  In this work, Thermo was comparing 
the work to ones where Gosunkugi rapes Ranma.  I dunno about you, but I 
think anyone who makes such a comparison has the right to get upset.

I AM upset.  You completely misread my message.  -_-;

Yup.  And so is Ranma.  As long as that's kept clear, and the Emporer 
is just trying to make use of him, that's fine, but if this steps 
anywhere near the Emporer having unselfish motivations, the story will 
take an even deeper step into character glorification.

That seems unrealistic.  There are usually three reasons for why people 
do things: the logical reason, the reason they tell everyone else, and 
the real reason.  Anyone at that level would be generous at least in 
part because of what they get out of it - prestige, or a debt, or 
something similar.  If the Emperor is doing something, you can bet it's 
for a reason - and the clues as to why are contained within the work 
itself.

Unselfish in this context is meant to be read as the Emporer being primarily motivated by a desire to help this poor, troubled soul.  Pretty straightforward.

So far, Ranma in this story has not been worth anybody's time--yet 
everybody acts like he's something special, Eiko included.  The whole 
extended family thing, and them running around wanting vengeance for 
poor Ranma-chan, is pushing it.

Mark made two assumptions for this story beyond the scope of the manga.
1. Ranma was qualified to become Sailor Pluto.
2. Ranma's maternal relatives are a ninja clan.

Anything else comes from the manga.  You can accept those, or not.  If 
not, well... nobody's making you read.

...I'm not really sure what your point is here.  Your statement doesn't seem connected to mine at all.

The story barely works in that aspect, if it works, and only because 
they're "family" is it at all acceptable.  Even then, the idea of such 
a number of relatives being solidly supportive without having even met 
Ranma before this whole thing started is hard to believe; watching 
Ranma isn't something that would inspire faith in his great 
personality or deservedness of a better life.  Ranma is no better than 
anybody else in the cast, even though he's being treated much better.

Treated much better.  Hmmm.

See the earlier paragraph, in which I state, "In this story."  Your list of horrific examples of how Ranma has been mistreated in the manga does not apply, since, well, this isn't the manga.  The context of my statements should have made this pretty clear; the intent was to communicate that Mark's interpretation of Ranma through the other characters (said ninja clan) is exceptionally unrelated to the actions and behaviors Ranma demonstrates in the manga, compared to the way the other characters are being interpreted.

To be more specific: if my brother goes out and assaults a woman while declaring that he will make her love him, I'm going to be damn careful around the guy afterwards, if he somehow doesn't get carted off to jail for it.  In this scenario, I *know* my brother and have for my entire life.  Ranma's family doesn't know him, and such an action would have a much bigger impact on their views.  However, all we get is a bunch of cheerleaders who support Ranma fully despite the unrealness of such a thing.  Sure, in an ideal world, everybody would know that Ranma is just a victim (yeah, right) and would do their utmost to help him...yet this is supposed to be a serious fic, not some kind of fluff story about love and happiness (despite the SM presence, which has been perverted to some extent anyway).  Real people, and real families, aren't going to react to Ranma like this story tries so hard to accomplish.

 If even somebody like the Emporer starts fawning over how terrible 
Ranma's life has been and assigning blame to everybody who has 
"mistreated" Ranma, well, the suspension of disbelief on this aspect 
of the story, which is a major one, is already hanging by a thread;  
th!
 at would cut the thread and toss the story's believability into the 
ranks of fics by Imortis.  Yeah, Gosunkugi, rape that redhead!  Get 
revenge, Akane!  Go, go, go!

This reflects how ridiculous this critique has become.  You're not 
criticizing the fic for what it is, but for what you think in your mind 
it might be.  I can assure you that Mark has no intentions of having 
Gosunkugi show up and rape anyone.

The subject was believability, not Gosunkugi going around raping people.  It's amazing that you actually start this message by wondering if I've read the same story you've read; I'm wondering if you read the message I wrote.

Also, the Emperor knows diplomacy.  Notice how he's already chastised 
Aiko and Nodoka for the damage done.  As stated, there's something 
going on here, and the clues are all there.

I'm not sure how to respond to this.  Again, I'm seeing a bit of a disconnection from what I typed.

This story would be a lot easier to accept if people took Ranma with a 
bit less faith.

News flash: Family take family with faith - at least, under normal 
circumstances.  It happens.

Sure, under normal circumstances that can happen.  Here's a question: what part of these circumstances are normal?

It has been stated in response to this chapter that Gaijin has changed 
the genre from the originally intended comedy.  Fine, whatever, but so 
far I haven't seen anything to indicate that Ranma's actions have been 
taken seriously; he's done some bad stuff.

Okay...

To address one aspect of the manga that is coming up, some kind of 
"handling" of the Amazons; Ranma swam to China and probably entered 
the country illegaly, stole Shampoo's food, and got Shampoo stuck 
having to either kill or marry Ranma or face being punished in some 
way by Amazon law.

All of which occurred in China.  Besides, which is worse - someone 
stealing food, or someone trying to kill?  Government officials do 
their best to handle the needs of themselves (usually that first) and 
their constituents/subjects (usually that second).  The China gang are 
not the Emperor's subjects; the indigenous people of Nerima who are 
probably tired of the property damage are.

Look at it from the Japanese perspective.  Shampoo first entered the 
country to kill Ranma.  She then returned, with family, to 
coerce/blackmail Ranma into returning with them - which could be viewed 
as kidnapping.  Somehow, anything Ranma does pales by comparison; 
attempted murder and kidnapping are pretty serious charges.

  Ranma also later assaulted Shampoo with the intent of "making her 
like him again" which looks pretty damn bad.

Nobody said Ranma was perfect.  However, when you compare what Ranma 
does here (and how that scene goes) to what the China gang has done in 
Japan...

Okay, I included this whole block just to make things clear, so that you can look back and see where you went wrong, if you're inclinded to.  At the beginning, I made it clear that the subject is that Ranma isn't a great guy, and that his faults need also be present in the story.  Now, how does that have ANYTHING to do with how the Amazons act?  If I go out and rob a bank, you think I can get off with, "Well, at least I didn't kill nobody like that OJ feller did!"  Try that defense sometime, see how far it gets you.

There are other examples of Ranma acting in less than an ideal manner, 
and supposedly his relatives were there to watch it all, yet they 
aren't wary of him in the slightest.  Everybody acts like he is just a 
victim, which is not the case, and !
 it makes the comparative bashing of the other characters (whose 
transgressions ARE being addressed) stand out even more.

His family acts like he is just a victim; families tend to do that.  
Eiko has her little tap on Ranma's mind, so she gets to feel all of 
Ranma's emotions.  The Emperor... well, there are clues as to what is 
going on there and why, from the seating of the people in the meeting 
to the anger that a couple of Ranma's relatives are showing to the fact 
that the Empire knows about Ranma and is doing this so soon after Ranma 
is admitted to the Yamada clan.  To all of this, there is method to the 
madness; one thing that Mark is doing is having people do precisely the 
wrong thing for the situation - but the right thing with the 
information they have.

Most of this is again, disconnected.  I am somewhat amused by your assurances that family tends to automatically comfort their victims.  My amusement is partly because of the victimization aspect, because the difference in portrayal between Ranma and the rest of the cast is exactly the subject of my original email, and partly because your image of families is incredibly idealistic.

Right now I'm wondering if we'll have Gosunkugi being dragged in by 
the police.  Maybe they'll rape his mom and previously unseen sister 
as revenge for the whole power suit story.  It'd "serve the violent 
little bastard right!"

The problem is that all of this is based on YOUR interpretation of 
events in the manga.  Allow Mark his.

...I'm going by this story's presentation of the characters.  Mark can go on whatever he likes, as can you, I suppose.  Despite that, I'm having trouble understanding how you would argue that Mark may not necessarily agree that Gosunkugi attacked Ranma in the manga.  How do you think Mark would interpret that arc, then?

It's a ridiculous idea, but hey, no more so than the way some of the 
other characters are being treated.  It has been stated that the 
actual INTENT of this fic is not to bash some characters and glorify 
others, but it does anyway, and unless there's a bit more equality 
introduced later on, it's going to continue despite the author's 
intentions.

Ah, finally we agree on something - your ideas being ridiculous!

Seriously, your interpretations of the events going on are based on two 
things: (1) your incomplete and inaccurate interpretation of events in 
the story (your obsession of what goes on with the arrest and its 
seeming gratuity reflects this, as well as your attitude toward the 
Emperor's meeting) and (2) your interpretation of events in the manga, 
which differs from Mark's.  You're certainly welcome to them, and 
you're also welcome to air them, as long as you don't go too far.  
However, you went too far, because you started making loose and 
spurious comparisons.

...the focus of my email was in no way on the rape scene nor was it on the Emporer's meeting.  I used the rape scene as a comparison for believability because that is the focus of much of this thread, and I used the Emporer to illustrate how the story is going too far in the differences between Ranma's portrayal and manga characters who are getting a far shorter end of the stick--and how it could easily get worse.   In both cases, you took off with what I said and came up with something completely different.

As for the interpretation of the events in the manga...what interpretation?  The events happened.  Are you going to argue that, or say that Mark may not acknowledge that they occurred?  I don't really get your whole approach with this interpretation angle, because it's not prompted by anything I wrote, nor is it on topic because of some connecting thought you introduced; it's just way out there, floating around for some reason.

Now, you are most certainly welcome to voice your point of view in 
regards to this work.  However, if you go too far, we have the right to 
call you out for it, and point out where your logic is in error.

Sir, your logic is in error.  The areas have been pointed out.

I'll keep that in mind.

-- Nick

--Thermo!


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