Subject: [FFML] Re: [Sailor Moon] [AU] Alternate Views 01
From: "Philip Bloom" <dracos12@hotmail.com>
Date: 11/19/2003, 11:14 AM
To: macspon@ihug.co.nz
CC: lurkerdrome@sbcglobal.net, thermopyle@tds.net, chibipoe@mindspring.com, ffml@anifics.com


This'll be my last post on this grammar debate, publicly at least.  But 
since someone decided to attempt to publicly correct me, I figure I should 
respond in an equally public manner to correct the correction.

The dictionary that Angus references is not entirely wrong, though his 
interpretation of it is.  Before I begin going into how and why his 
interpretation is wrong, I'll just give a very clear challenge using it.  If 
we go with what he says, you should be able to achieve this in real life.  
If anyone manages to do this, please inform me of my utter incorrectness and 
how you managed such a thing.  The challenge is to, using only a smile (as 
that's the action verb and the only action verb) convey this sentence into 
reality:

"I am going to kill you and then kick your father in the nuts after I finish 
my french toast, fried eggs, and ham," he smiled.

If any of you can manage this feat, feel free to correct me on smile being a 
legitimate speech indicator.  If you can't, then please join the rest in 
either agreeing with me on it not being one or at least remaining silent in 
your aggressive ignorance.  And remember, you can't 'say' anything because 
otherwise you are 'saying' that line with a smile and not 'smiling' the 
line.

Now, onto a correct interpretation of that Oxford dictionary line.  Simply 
put, it is using the smile as a descriptive direct object, not a verb when 
it says 'to say with a smile'.  It should be obvious that anything you would 
preface that with would have 'to say' as the verb and 'smile' as a modifier, 
not as the dialogue verb.  The other definitions(synonyms) that were given 
were of a theaterical nature.

"'I care for you' his smile said."  : would be an example of what they 
meant.

Basically, it's acceptable to use when you are indicating not a dialogue but 
an interpretation of what the smile means.  This way you can differentiate 
more powerfully between a the various emotions that can be conveyed with a 
smile without being hyper descriptive.  It can only convey simple thoughts 
in this manner and there are no dialogue markers as it isn't dialogue.  
Nothing is being said, merely you are conveying how the protagonist is 
perceiving the smile.  It's a tool, in other words, to place your reader 
inside a protagonists head and thought path, not to convey dialogue in the 
traditional sense.

And I'm oh so certain you go around managing to say "Hello" to people by 
smiling and not saying hello.

So, I'm glad I was around and able to help cleanse this grammatical myth 
that befuddled your thinking and interpretation.  Thank you for the 
opportunity to be of assistance.

Dracos

From: Angus MacSpon <macspon@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Philip Bloom" <dracos12@hotmail.com>
CC: lurkerdrome@sbcglobal.net, thermopyle@tds.net, chibipoe@mindspring.com, 
ffml@anifics.com
Subject: [FFML] Re: [Sailor Moon] [AU] Alternate Views 01
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:16:07 +1300


At 8:01 PM +0000 18/11/2003, Philip Bloom wrote:
 > > Smiled is not a speech tag.  Neither is nodded.

It is if the author chooses it to be. It's a stylistic thing.

You are wrong in your criticism of Thermopyle here Lurker.  It is true, 
he
can use it stylisticially, but Therm is absolutely correct in pointing it
out as being wrong regardless.

A lot of people say that.  I wonder how many of them have ever actually
bothered to LOOK IT UP?

In my dictionary (Oxford) I clearly find, under the verb "smile":
     To exhibit, indicate or express by smiling; to grant, bestow, etc,
     with a smile; with direct speech as obj., to say with a smile.
That last bit is pretty conclusive, don'cha think?

Yes, it IS correct to say:
     "Hello," he smiled.
Stylistically, you may not like it.  (I don't particularly like it
myself.)  But it is NOT wrong.

Can we call an end to another grammatical myth, please?

Cheers,
Angus

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angus MacSpon                                    Email: macspon@ihug.co.nz
ICQ: 65719513                            http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~macspon/

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