Sorry for the length; I snipped as much as I could, but a lot of this was
context-embedded...

On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, HKMiller wrote:

On Sunday 10 November 2002 08:06 pm, Vincent Seifert wrote:

I merged your 3 messages.  Was posting the story in parts more convenient
for you as a C&Cer?

Actually, yes; it enabled me to finish small bites and get them posted.
And once I posted the first, then of course I had to follow through and
finish them all.  I have occasionally started a comprehensive C&C
of some long post, gotten interrupted, and never finished; your
small parts ensured that didn't happen this time.

Take note, all you posters of long chapters.  :)

"What I really want to know, though, is why Kasumi would marry
Ranma."

Having all your characters ask this question works to underline
that we don't really quite know, at the end of this, though we
do get hints.  Are you planning to ever answer this question
fully?  (If not, suggest you dispense with a few of the echoes
of this question in this story.)

My earlier comment was motivated in part by comments J. Michael
Straczynski (sp?) made about his own technique:  that he points to
unresolved questions that he WILL resolve, in the future, by having
characters ask these questions of each other.  This draws attention
to the questions themselves, while you want to draw attention to
the various characters' answers.  So I guess my suggestion remains
the same, but a bit more focusedd, perhaps:  to see if you can have
the characters offer their various answers while placing a bit less
emphasis on the questions themselves.

I see what you're driving at now (I missed it before).  Sure, all the
story really needs is the various answers, not the repeated questions.
I'll see if I can streamline that without messing up the dialogue flow.
 

Well, we don't really know that, do we? Does Nodoka never express any
concern on-page in the manga over what Genma may have been up to while
he was away because she's totally sure of his fidelity, or is there some
other reason? Could it be that even if he did stray, it wouldn't bother
her enough to make a fuss about it, and in any case she wouldn't ask?

That's a good point.  It is canonical that Nodoka expresses
essentially zero (maybe even negative) concern about Genma during
the period when Ranma's hiding his curse.  Clearly it wouldn't bother
her particularly.

Breaking the fourth wall, it looks like that's a running gag: Nodoka is
concerned about Ranma and isn't concerned about Genma, to Genma's chagrin
(he gets some of the silliest expressions) and the amusement of the
readers. In-story, though, it looks like Nodoka really does care more
about Ranma than Genma, which suggests that HER marriage isn't
particularly warm... of course, that 10-year hiatus is probably relevant
here, too.

My point was a trifle more abstract:  with Genma around, and presuming
that he's providing some support, does she care?

Hard to say... which means it's convenient for fanfic writers.  :)  I was
actually intending to take this up in Centaur as well, from a slightly
different angle (Genma's support of Nodoka, not Ranma's of, uh, his wife.)

But, in writing this, I remembered something else that struck me
in re-reading AMAW:  the question of Ranma's contribution to the
support of his family in Nerima.  He's shown bringing back trinkets
which Kasumi may or may not be able to sell for significant money;
he's not teaching classes in the dojo (Akane is).  So we don't
really know if Ranma is an insignificant contributer to the family
finances or an significant one.  If the former, then the comparison
between Kasumi and Nodoka can be made directly.

I intend to explore that; it's an important factor in the 4th story, the
Ranma/Akane one.

Canonically, the Tendo and Saotome households both appear to have some
small income, sufficient to maintain the property in both cases.  The
Tendo property is larger, and the extra from the income is enough to
maintain 6 people; Nodoka's income is apparently little more than enough
for one.  This doesn't seem to be from any kind of employment.  The only
money-making activity I've seen is that one time they rented out (?) the
dojo for a neighborhood women's meeting in the Mark of the Battling God
story.  (I take the view that Nabiki's activities are only to benefit
Nabiki.)

This suggests that, while any money Ranma can bring in isn't strictly
necessary, it would be welcome, making the difference between a frugal
existence and a comfortable one... so there should be some pressure
there, which will be expressed in different ways. 

I'm stuck here. Akane HAS to be boneheaded enough to do things that will
cause Ranma to believe she really doesn't want him, and then not do
anything to correct the error, long enough to get him married to Kasumi,
or the story won't end up at AMAW. This tightrope act is in danger of
falling off the wire in a dozen places as it is!

True, considered canonically.  But I seldom worry about the
discrepancies while reading "The Bitter End" or "Genma's Daughter".
I think what you're trying to do (persuade readers to leave their
disbelief at the door) IS achievable.

OK, good.  I can't forget how unlikely it is... and then I remember that's
good thing.  :) 
 

No, not really. Nabiki pretty much drops out of the storyline after
this. The main reason for having Nabiki here is to get in what she says
below, and thereby suggest that possible motivation to readers who
might not have thought of it themselves:

Right.  So Nabiki needs to be part of this conversation.  Suggest,
however, leaving it ambiguous whether she believes that "marriage
is about love".

OK.
 

Would it work better if the first part was an act (Nabiki preparing to
shake Kasumi down for a payment) and Kasumi takes the act at face value,
but her response deflates Nabiki's scam? I have a little trouble with
that, since Kasumi certainly has access to more money than Akane or
Ranma, but Nabiki is never seen trying to scam her in the manga...

Or maybe tweaking Nabiki's motivations or internal reactions would suffice?

Yes, I think all it needs it tweaks to Nabiki's motivations.  I wouldn't
go the shake-down route, though.  It might be better if her motivation
was simple amusement again:  she assumes the "marriage = love"
position to try to shake Kasumi out of pure mischief, or she wants
to know Kasumi's motivations, to go create mischief with Ranma
and/or Akane.  Maybe sell the info to Ranma?  Or to Ukyou et al?
(After all, Nabiki does not yet know that all the usual customers
are either gone or leaving.)

Thanks, that helps a lot.

"Sa, uh, Tendo Ranma," he managed in conclusion.

As the text stands, we're to suppose that Ranma is taking "Tendo"
by virtue of Kasumi heading the new family register, since no
previous adoption has been mentioned.  The problem, of sorts,
is that this is regarded as the unmanly path in Japan, and it
in implausible that Nodoka would tolerate it.  She'd insist on the
adoption the day before, and Ranma heading the family
register.  A minor nit, I assure you, but also one easily
fixed.

Um... maybe not so easily, since I planned it that way. (If you check,
you will find that nowhere in AMAW or Heart of the Phoenix are Ranma,
Kasumi, or their, er, her children referred to as "Saotome".)

As I see it, Nodoka settled the manliness issue back in manga v36, and
since then has been certain of Ranma's exemplary manliness (rather more
exemplary than he actually was, in fact), with only a few brief bobbles
due to wacky hijinks. The usual reason for the unusual event of the
groom joining the bride's family rather than vice-versa has less to do
with manliness than economic circumstances (which could be considered to
apply here) and, in particular, a well-to-do family with no sons
(ditto), so I don't think Nodoka would object to it on those grounds.
The real issue is that Ranma is eldest and only son, and the real
question is why Nodoka would permit the "loss" of said son... and there
is a reason, but this isn't the proper time to go into it; it'll come up
in a future story, so I beg your indulgence until then.

(Also, I'd like to leave open the possibility of a precedent: it isn't
certain that "Saotome" was originally Genma's family name and Nodoka
married into it, nor that "Tendo" was Soun's, is it?)

As for the bureaucratics of the matter, I imagine it was handled
off-page on the morning of the wedding by transferring Ranma from the
Saotome register to the Tendo just before submitting the marriage forms,
deeding the property, and filing Ranma's change of residence. In
unseemly haste, to be sure...

(It occurs to me to wonder why the possibility of Ranma becoming a Tendo
that opened chapter 9 of Taming of the Horse didn't provoke any dissent
then, though. Maybe because it didn't actually happen. :)

Obviously I wasn't clear in my comment.  I wasn't complaining that
the married couple takes the name "Tendo"; I was complaining about
which of the two possible routes to that end the text seems to be
suggesting (which is why I said it's a nit).

Oops.  ^_^;
 

The option where Kasumi heads the new family register, so the family
name is Tendo, has only been available since after WWII.  It is this
option which supposedly has an "unmanly" aspect, since the family
register lists the wife as family head.  (The family name of the newly
created family must be the pre-marriage family name of the listed
head-of-family.)

D'oh!  I wasn't aware of that one.  I was thinking exclusively in terms of
the option below, which I did know about... so I didn't know I was
suggesting the former.

The much older option, dating back centuries, is that Ranma becomes
an adopted Tendo before the wedding (possibly just before).  [This
is what's going on in Shoujo Kakumei Utena where Akio has been
adopted as an Ohtori preparatory to his marriage to whats-her-name.
Akio's legal surname is Ohtori, but he's not married yet.]  This option
does NOT have the "unmanly" aspect pertaining to it, since the
husband is listed as family head in the new family register.  (Both
husband and wife have the same pre-marriage family name in this
case; at least, they do immediately prior to the wedding.)

I had occasion at one point to look up stats on this.  The proportion
of marriages where the wife's name is taken at the marriage itself
is quite low, as you say (3%?).  But there are still apparently 20,000 or
so adoptions each year in Japan which appear to have no purpose
other than to "adjust" the man's family name prior to the marriage.

Thanks for the statistics; that's interesting.

So your Happi doesn't qualify as the go-between?  He'd have
been at the wedding itself if he did.

No, that was Kasumi and Pantyhose-Taro he was the go-between for, in
another fic far, far away. :) Here, Happosai was off stealing panties or
something; he had nothing to do with the planning or preparations.

I didn't think the go-between actually had to DO anything; just being
the means by which the two families got together was sufficient.
Presumably, as the means by which Genma and Soun met and formed
their pact, he might be conceived to qualify.

I think I like the way they met in "Pastpresent" better.  :)

This was just too complicated already; I didn't dare add Happosai in any
other capacity than partier...

     They returned in a few minutes; now Kasumi was dressed in a
magnificent outer kimono, resplendent with brocade and embroidery
in symbols of good fortune.

Ah, the oiro-naoshi, where the bride changes into the uchikake.

Yes, but I'm trying to be good about the Japanese even if I don't think
it's gratuitous. :)

But you could have inserted some good jokes if Wedding Peach
were better known to your reader base; the three characters actually
shout out "oiro-naoshi" when changing from their wedding dresses
into their real fighting costumes.

A series I'm not familiar with myself, alas...
 

Heh.  This is another partial explanation for Kasumi's actions, and
it's telling about Nabiki, too:  she's been out of high school for a
year, away at college, and she's still relying on Kasumi to do her
laundry?

Not "away"; she's been living at home because she's going to a college
close enough for it to be practical and she's too cheap to move out. One
of my prereaders said I needed to mention this somewhere; looks like he
was right and I was wrong...

I'm not sure it changes the gist, really; she's living at home, going to
college, and relying on laundry help from her older sister who wasn't
ABLE to go to college, despite test scores which would have allowed
it.  Obviously she never offered to help Kasumi with the laundry.

Has Nabiki EVER done anything altruistic or helpful?  I can't think of any
examples.

Isn't it? Makes you wonder if maybe Kasumi in AMAW knows what's 
going on with Ranma and Akane, perhaps?

If anything, I kind of assumed she did.  There was, for instance, no
slightest hint that Kasumi is suggesting to the 26-year-old Akane
that she ought to be out looking for a husband herself.  What she
DOES express is a desire to ensure that Ranma returns to her and
her home, and Akane as mistress simply adds to the attraction Kasumi's
home holds for Ranma.

...as long as he doesn't run off with her, yes.  Might be a little too
risky as a long-term strategy... or maybe Kasumi knows something I don't.
:)
 

Still no Nabiki, though ;)

Hey, she was only a fiancee for about a week.  :)

Seriously, do you think I should work her in somehow? If so, what would
be the point: what would it say about her, and about Ranma? My immediate
reaction is "ick", and I think Ranma's immediate (and enduring) reaction
would be "Not a chance!"

Well, no.  The thought only arose because Kasumi is included.
Personally, I count only Akane, Ukyou, Shampoo, and (for some
purposes) Kodachi as fiancees, but I've noticed that some writers
tend to include Nabs and Kasumi and often omit Kodachi.

I won't omit Kodachi, of course.  My biases are well-known.  :)

So I guess I was wondering whether (in your mind at the time you
wrote AMAW) Kasumi got Ranma because you thought of her
as one of the fiancees, or because she was simply the best
mechanism available for having the other four get Ranma.

The latter.  Dave and I were kicking around possible scenarios (most of
which were even more outrageous than this one, and shot down by the
possessiveness of the women involved), and then AMAW smote me like a
veritable thunderbolt: Kasumi's the only gal in sight who a) might
conceivably marry Ranma AND b) might conceivably not be so possessive that
he wouldn't stray or would pulp him if he did.  She also puts the others
on a more equal footing. 

But I agree; adding Nabs seems pointless (especially since
there is no lack of Nabiki gets Ranma fics out there, both
fairly good and pretty bad).

OK, she stays on the sidelines, then.  Whew.  :)

Thanks for being persistent; I had some major misunderstandings of your
comments there, and I'm glad you clarified them.

Vince Seifert    Fanfic Analyst   FFIRC Frog
Prime:  seifertv@csus.edu
Backup: seifertv@myrealbox.com
Techie: http://webpages.csus.edu/~seifertv/
Fanfic: http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/seifertv/toth/
Ideas are worth their weight in gold.



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