This was more of a "straw that broke the camel's back,
ne?

Miller, Bert" <Bert.Miller@unisys.com> wrote:

All I can say on the KKJ fic I recently sent is

that

it is shoujo.  It is meant to read a bit cliche.

<clip>

Shoujo is meant to be repetitive;

I'd have to disagree; lately I've been watching
Escaflowne for the first time, and neither
"repetitive"
nor "cliche" seems to fit this series at all.

Escaflowne... doesn't classify, to me, as true
"bubbles and gum" shoujo.  I was at AX for the movie
premier- and TRUST me- there were more guys in line
than girls!  When I refer to shoujo, I mean the things
that make the guys CRINGE... ne?  The stuff that
doesn't walk the line...  Some things are hard to
classify- Ranma, Escaflowne... to some extent, GW
(come on, think of the fandom!)

By definition, "shoujo" is material calculated to
appeal to a female audience.  This has consequences
in the choice of material, but does not (or should
not) affect the normal criteria by which we judge
whether it is good or not so good.  And "repetitive"
and "cliche", if true, are both ways in which an
artistic work falls short of what it could be.

True.  But sometimes repetition strengthens a piece...
after all, can you imagine Sailor Moon without the
henshin sequences?

Well, I could... but it wouldn't be the same anime.
THose sequences are "trademark" of the mahou girl.

Specifically, while it is certainly true that a lot
of shoujo involves wiser male characters guiding the
heroine, it is also true (following Sturgeon's Law)
that 90% of shoujo is garbage.

*g*  This applies for shounen as well. 

I think... there is a bias against shoujo on this
list-<clip>
The Sailor Moon that comes through this list is

hardly

recognizable as the anime the Takeuchi Naoko

wrote. 

Actually, Takeuchi wrote the manga.  But I
will agree that I don't think I've ever seen SM
fanfic
which is recognizable as Takeuchi's style, or really
uses her content that closely.  

Correct- I mispoke- I know she wrote the manga, and I
should be smacked.  I was just thoroughly wound up
after catching up on my FFML email where it seemed
that people were shoujo bashing- AGAIN.

I've hardly EVER seen shoujo recieved well.


On the content

aspect,
this is too bad:  her manga senshi are more powerful
than their anime counterparts, and (as Allyn once
pointed out) it is explicitly stated that their
lives
are dedicated to Usagi (i.e. they "don't need any
men").

Very true!  "Girl Power!"

On the style aspect, I'm actually quite thankful
that nobody has followed Takeuchi very closely;
the manga dwells enormously on an Usagi
near-paralyzed
by indecision and angst every time Mamoru
disappears/
is kidnapped/is brainwashed/is killed. 

*sigh*  You obviously don't spend much time in Sailor
Moon fandom....

 There's only

so much of this I personally can take (though this
may be exactly the reaction you are taking exception
to).

Perhaps.  I do not MIND exceptions.  I MIND it when
the "canon" stuff is CONSTANTLY ignored.
My favorite SM fanfic is SM 4200- but that doesn't
mean I don't appreciate those who try to stay along
the canon lines!

I seem to be playing a game called "how obscure a
series can you find" and it's a hoot to see

people's

reactions.

It can work either way.  Fanfic based on obscure
series can often get looked at by people who would
pass you over if the fic were Ranma.  

Yup.  I realize this when I play the game.  Still-
getting canned by someone unfamiliar with the series
BECAUSE they are unfamiliar with the series (it has
happened to me, if I look through my saved Emails, I
can probably find some examples).

It does, of

course, depend on the series, as almost nobody is
going to read a fanfic based on a series they've
never seen.  (People will, however, read a crossover
where they haven't seen all of the series involved.)

And I realize this as well.... I've written... quite a
few xovers.

 I drift, naturally enough to shoujo. 
There's fodder for fiction there.

Agreed, at least with regard to the series
themselves.
How many Himechan no Ribbon fics are there out
there?

Himechan never inspired me- it's a series I hate.  Not
enough depth.  

Battle Athletes Victory, Fushigi Yuugi, Kamikaze
Kaitou Jeanne, Kaitou St Tail, Kodomo no Omocha,
Gravitation, Shoujo Kakumei Utena, Rurunin Kenshin,
Yami no Matsuei, CLAMP Campus Detectives, Card Captor
Sakura, I Me My Strawberry Eggs, Fruits Basket,
Pretear, Kare Kano, Full Moon wo Sagashite, Hana Kimi,
Tokyo Babylon, X:1999, Chobits, Real Bout Highschool,
Princess 9.... I could come up with something for all
of these... and more.  Even Escaflowne, since you
consider that shoujo!  I consider it "middle of the
road"- it was one of those they couldn't quite
decide..... (I actually am five chapters into an epic,
ne?)

there seems to be an unwritten rules
that "shoujo/waff/feelings" are bad and must be
rewritten!  Any "thought piece" or "character
reflection" is canned... and it's just... well,

there

seems to be no room for them.

Counterexample:  Joseph Palmer is a quite well-known
Ranma fanfic writer who has built his reputation
primarily on WAFF fanfics.  And see the end of this
message for another counterexample.

Generalizing.  There's exceptions, but most Ranma fics
that do well are longer epics that focus on angst
(which just does not keep in tone- The Bitter End is
my all-time fave, though i realize it is so not in
tone it's not funny) or action (let's say... Waters
under Earth, dramatic epic, action, angst which lost
me because it was just so not ranma to me).

And here's where people say it's because I'm

either

jealous of lack of feedback, I should feedback

more,

or get the hell out of here, girly, it's a man's
world.  

Providing more feedback is the one surefire way
to get more yourself.  It has worked for me
personally,
and I've seen it work for others.

Sometimes.  Not always; I have always fedback where I
thought my particular brand would help (I edit for
newspapers, so I can't help but look at things with an
editor's eye, rather than a reader's eye- that's why
I'm harsh).

There are other ways, but they are not surefire.
For instance, posting a specific request for C&C
may help.

Which I have always found tacky.

I've tried feedbacking, but frankly, I'm not
interested in Ranma; I feedback on a bit of the
non-Ranma stuff that comes through when it strikes

me,

but people have short memories.  Also- let's just

say

that I make Allyn-san look nice.  I don't believe

in

disclaimers... you post to the net, your writing

is

public property and may heaven help you if I hate

it. 

While I do not flame, two girls have "retired"

because

that can't take honest C&C- which is why I PREFER

the

FFML to the other mailing lists I belong to.

Agreed; I too would rather have people tell me
what they honestly think.  I'd like to think that
the FFML is the list for people who are actually
trying hard to improve their writing skills.

Sa.  I think the FFML is a frying pan, and I just
inadvertantly let my big mouth move me into the
fire... I really DREAD posting my next fic- I post
about once a week....

However, I think you can give the same feedback in
nice and in not-so-nice ways.  For instance, to
some recipients it might make a big difference to
write "your writing ..." or "your text at this
point ..." instead of "you (personally) ..."

Saaa.. people are overly hyper sensitive.  And this, I
think, is their intro to the real world.  I've HAD it
with prima donna contributing writers!  They wanna be
coddled, they should find a different list.  The FFML
is good for that; honesty is what I value from it.

But hating something because it is SHOUJO, rather
because of the WRITING is a different story.

Agreed, if actually true.

Happens to me quite a bit.  People see genre, TRASH. 
Try submitting USagi/Mamoru WAFF.... *shudders*  I
will never do that again.  I know the audience here...

So have people scared me off?  Hell no.

Good for you.

No- just stubborn... and maybe a bit stupid.  

I'm going to keep ramming shoujo down people's
throats.  Why?  Because- someone might appreciate

it.

I usually assume that at least ten people have read
any given fic for every one who has bothered to
reply.
The ratio goes up for later chapters in a series.

I've found that counters on websites both help and
damage self esteem.  I KNOW YOU'RE THERE PEOPLE!  
JUST SIGN THE GUESTBOOK!

it's been forever since I've seen anything new in

that

fandom.  The last thing I liked there was "Genma's
Daughter."

"Genma's Daughter" is actually a pretty good
counterexample
for some of the things you are claiming.  I would
argue
that it is shoujo, but neither repetitive nor
cliche.
Certainly it dwells on feelings and character
issues.

Which is part of shoujo.  I was generalizing.  I have
nothing against a well-written break the mold!  But I
think people need to understand the genre before they
tromp all over it.  Many shoujo stories WILL follow a
certain plot.  I was attempting to do that, and I
believe Raye was doing the same, which people did not
get because they did not get the nature of the genre-
because they make no attempt to.

It got a LOT of comment when it appeared, too (some
raving for, a few raving against.  I was active in
that
thread as both a mild critic of the story and as an
active defender of the story's essence against some
of
its detractors), contrary to your assertion that the
FFML
ignores such stories.

Saa- but it was Ranma.

Which is my point.  I recognize that people will read
Ranma more frequently, but the way that other shoujo
stories disapear...

*sighs*  One of the problems may be that I have always
sent my C&C privately because I'm on digest.  
Sometimes C&C inspires MORE C&C... I've gotten FOUR
messages in an hour over this issues....  SAA... wish
people read my stories this much!

Wish I hadn't stepped on this landmine in public!

And I wasn't supporting CLICHE or REPETITIVE fics - I
was saying that repetition can be used in some
situations- particularly the shoujo!

I've said SAAA at least four times- we can tell it's
gonna be a LOOOONG night...

~ Aishuu


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Don�t bury me in the lost yesterdays. 
Don�t stop me any further. 
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I Want to Become the Wind
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http://www.midnightrevolution.org/quicksilver/

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