And some more on top of those! :P
Comments on Comments##
"Ryan Erik" <ryanerik@redshift.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allyn Yonge" <allynyonge0000@netscape.net>
To: <ffml@anifics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:46 AM
Subject: [FFML] [fanfiction][ranma] Lure the Tiger from the Mountains
1-2/30
<SNIP>
"Shut up!" Ranma smacked his father's bald head
with a rotting board, knowing better than to hit so hard an
object with his bare hand. He looked at the tiny, pale
appendage in disgust. Especially now. "This is all _your_
fault, anyway!"
Tiny, pale appendage? Is he referring to his now cursed hand?
That's an odd way to describe it. It puts a bizare image in my
head, like a mishapen at birth disfigurement.
## :( My fault. I had a pre-reader point that out to me as
well. And I never quite liked it myself. OTOH, for some
reason, I never figured out how to fix it.
This is a common problem, for me, on very long stories, btw.
When I'm writing, it's as if a movie is playing inside my head,
VERY fast, and I'm typing like mad to keep up. Sometimes
I don't have time to figure out how to describe in words what
I'm seeing. The result is a little jumbled. And, sometime I miss
putting in entire scenes. I KNOW it happened, I just never
put it down on paper.
That's why I appreciate C&C so much. ^_^
When a reader says:
"That doesn't make sense!"
"How did you get from A to B?"
Sort of thing, then I know that what I _wrote_ on paper doesn't
match what I'm _reading_. Because in my head, I'm filling in the gaps,
but
an outside reader can't do that. And complains (C&C) about
"tiny, pale appendage" which lets me know I goofed.
I could _see_ the whole scene in the warehouse as it was
happening. And I could see Ranma looking at his (her) hand
with revulsion. Like he woke up to find a mass of rotting worms
growing out of his wrist, instead of a hand. It's tiny and
pale and 'girly' as opposed to his big, road-tanned MASCULINE
hand. It's alien and he doesn't like it.
Actually, describing it to you like this, helps me think of
a better way to describe the scene.
##
I agree. I've often had a scene imagined as you have, and then when I
write it the message gets confused in the words. It's really just the
adjectives and noun you used in this case. The appendage almost
sounds like its refering to the arm, and combined with tiny makes it sound
like a deformity. Pale gives it a sort of deathly hue, almost as if it were
a flower stem decaying. Since Ranma is an outside person, pale is never
really a good description of his skin. I'd imagine he keeps a nice tan just
by being outside so often. Petite, small, weak, etc would work better.
##Comma? Comma? You know, I think I've
heard of those things. ^_^
Could be worse. There was a fellow in
my wife's English class know as the
CommaKaze! Because he used so may
comma's.
##
Commas are only a tool for putting a pause in text. It gives
the reader a slight 'break' if you will. When you have a sentence
that stretches on so long, it's harder to read. Sometimes commas
confuse things more. It's really not an issue of "correctness" which
our retarded schools have mashed into our brains, but of readability
and clarity of message. I hate proscribing commas, and only do so
when I think it could help the meaning or the readability =)
"Married?" Tendou Nabiki almost dropped the dish
she was drying. "Are you kidding? I can't get married now.
I want to get into a good college."
Being married would stop her? Hmm...in a traditional Japanese
marriage, yes, you're right. Pretty hardcore story version of R1/2
so far. Just don't go the whole darkfic route please. They always
end so messed up! :P
##Actually, it's pretty difficult for a married woman
even now. It's still assumed that a woman's real
role is as wife/mother. There are VERY few married
women going into college. (According to my reading)
In fact there's a term called "Marriage Retirement"
because married women aren't supposed to take up
a job that a man could use. ^_^ Even under normal
conditions in the USA it's more difficult to
start college AND a marriage at the same time.
Lots of stress involved.
That's very intense. Sexism is so despicable in society,
and I'm glad to have been enlightened more to its faucets
in Japanese society. Ugh, I'm sick of it not being gone
already though! heh
This is good to know. I thought this was pretty
clear. But you've made me think about it. In
retrospect I should perhaps have had Nabiki
or Kasumi mention something that made
the situation clearer. Nabiki in fact does
do this, but several chapters later.
##
I'm glad you have multiple dimensions in your text. It gives
it the setting I mentioned in my original message. I just did
not clearly understand her line of thinking, as I did not realize
marriage would be an obstacle to college for one of her
intellectual skills.
<SNIP>
"I'm on it, pop," Nabiki was already heading for the
phone, even before Soun finished speaking, while Kasumi,
her calm slightly ruffled, had opened the refrigerator and
was pulling out a plastic box containing an assortment of
bottles and small glass vials.
I suddenly picture Akane like the Samuel L. Jackson character
in Unbreakable...
##^)^
She's not unbreakable. Just very . . .sturdy.
##
Err, actually, Sammy Jackson's character was called "Mr. Glass" and
had a rare bone disorder that caused his bones to break with even the
lightest contact. He'd shatter like glass just falling. Akane brought that
image up, because of the way her father and sisters reacted, as if Akane
would die immediately without instant care. Nabiki, if anyone, would
be sarcastic to an injury by her sister, since she isn't one to usually take
to parental blindness over a little wound.
She grinned, an expression that seemed to light the whole
room. "But I really blasted that concrete block. Wham----
boom!" she pulled her hands apart sharply. "Nothing but
dust."
"I don't think it's safe for you to be doing such
strenuous things," Soun said worriedly. His spine firmed as
he came to a sudden decision. "I forbid you to use the
doujou anymore!"
He sounds like my parents.
##Thank you. I wanted Soun to sound
"parent like" in a realistic overprotective
way.
##
I get a cold and my mom orders me to the doctor. I get a scrape
and she needs me to go to the doctor to see if it needs stitches.
Fortunately, I resisted her, but yes, this version of Soun reminds
me of her.
"I didn't have a drop," Genma retorted, offended
dignity in every line of his corpulent frame. "except for a
little warm sake. Strictly for medicinal purposes," he
hastened to add. Those few dozen cases of beer didn't
count, he thought. Beer wasn't really _drinking_.
Ok, he's a seriously boozed up Genma. But he doesn't seem
abusive, so I can continue reading... hehe ;-)
##Depends on what you call abusive?
I tried to stick pretty close to things I've read about 'old' martial arts
and Zen training. Which could get pretty brutal. With the assumption
that Genma loves the bottle. And is a thief/conman. I went for
realism here as much as possible. Chapter 28 gives the "complete" story
about the "Cat Fist" for the first time anywhere. ^)^
Well, MY version of it, anyway. In a flashback. Not to worry,
only three of these. Nabiki, Ukyou and Ranma. Ukyou's
got the longest Flashback. ^_^
##
Abusive in this context, I alluded to the fanfic convention to make
Genma a child abuser. Not in the sense of training, but in the respect
that he hits his child out of rage, or in a drunken stupor when he was
younger. I've read several stories like that and have developed a distate
for that aspect.
Training, OTOH, I'm cool with as Genma DID throw the poor kid
into a pit of starving cats. It wasn't to "HURT" him, but to make him
more powerful...where as a beating is for degredation, pain, humiliation,
etc.
"Jeez pop, all I've got to do is sweet-talk some bitch
an' get her to fork over a little 'love token'." Ranma
Yeesh, he's really got an edge, this version.
##Depends on what's going on. Ranma is
NOT going to be simple or straight forward.
None of the characters are. (Well, Ukyou maybe.
Except for that little . . .well, never mind.)
I was trying to base Ranma, a little, on
children of alcoholic parents. So he's
spent most of his life taking care of Genma.
Ranma is in the position of being Son to Genma
and parent. My big problem was to try to keep
the situation realistic, without being bleak.
I'm pretty sure that I lost some realism in
the attempt to lighten the mood, but hope
I kept the story readable.
##
It is or I wouldn't have responded. =)
snorted derisively at the thought. "Then you turn it into cash
an' we split. It's not like we ain't . . .haven't done this
before." He looked over his shoulder at his father. "
Besides, girls love fixin' stuff," his lip curled at the thought,
"learnin' me manners and how to talk right an' stuff just
makes 'em go all mushy."
His speech patterns are a bit much. I'm not sure if he's faking it,
or what. I know Ranma speaks rougher than his father, but the
last sentence is so completely 'not' Ranma, it just doesn't work
for me at all. Maybe just drop the "me" after learnin' ? Or not ;p
##Oooops. I was trying to show Ranma being
sarcastic to Genma. Ranma's done this con so many
times he could do it in his sleep. And he's putting girls
down just a bit by overacting.I guess I need to rewrite to
make that more explicit.
Sometimes I'm too subtle. ^)^
Oh, I kinda got lost in the rough language. It didn't sound
like something anyone would say even in jest.
Basically he's saying
that girls are so _stupid_ they can't tell he's pulling
a con, even if he goes wildly overboard.
That's what I was _trying_ to do.
Again, having to explain it to you, shows me
my error. Even better it helps me learn a little
more about self-editing. Hopefully I won't make
that mistake too many more times. ^_*
Watch Ranma's speech. Under stress
or when he's relaxed he should revert to a
rougher style. Normally he uses speech,
like clothes or body language, as a tool
for a con.
Will do.
Kasumi tried to repress a guilty little tingle of
pleasure. When father's old friend and son had shown up
out of nowhere, she had been prepared to be polite, nothing
more. Despite her father's apparent hopes, she really
preferred _older_ men. But Ranma was so _yummy_
looking . . .
*choke* Ok...
##HEY! He's young, a martial artist AND
he's spent the last ten years learning to con
people. Meaning, in part, attracting the
opposite sex. And boy can he . . . .errrr
well, more on that later.
##
Still, he doesn't look any different than he did before. I'm not
so sure that Nabiki and Kasumi are the types to turn into mush
after one meeting. I can see some of the Sailor Senshi giving this
reaction, but not Kasumi (ever aloof), and Nabiki (never one to
let anyone get an edge on her). At least allow Nabiki to match
him in wit, and see through some of his ploy. She's never given
enough credit when suave new (or newly adjusted) characters
show up at her doorstep to reside at the dojo.
<SNI>
"Have some of this steamed-custard," Nabiki
offered, a little breathlessly. She'd never _seen_ such a
gorgeous boy in her life. And his careless speech and style
of dress, so different from all the Fuurinkan _boys_, gave
him a slightly dangerous edge that she found a little
exciting.
Uh-oh...I'm getting that all powerful Ranma c0qu3rz the world
ringing bell in my head...
##??? Nah, just normal boy-girl stuff.
Ranma just knows how to charm the ladies.
Like an actor, he gives the audience what
they want.
I meant, it's as if he dropped into the spring of the drowned
hunk, getting that reaction and pulling the table over them so
well in just their first meeting (Especially after that show of
resistance that the two young women put up in their speech
to Soun in the 1st chapter).
BTW, I've had complaints that I'm switching
POV too often and too fast in the first
two chapters. (Here, between Kasumi & Nabiki)
What I was _trying_ to do was
Third Person Flexible (3PF), that is, the 'camera' is mounted
on an 'omniscient' observer who 'occasionally' dips
into a characters head to how what they are thinking/feeling.
(Third person omniscient limited as opposed to
Third person omniscient)
I'm accustomed to it. I only had a problem with POV in 1 or 2
places, but not enough to really distract me.
I can _see_ all of this happening, and I wrote
it as it happened. And 3PF seemed the best and
most 'natural' way to go to show this scene and
many others.
The critical question:
Is it jarring? Were you jolted out of the
story by this?
Nah. The only difficulty that appears when you change
views like this is inner dialogue. I mentioned it in one
point where Genma is thinking, but I've seen it in a lot
of fics. I'll put my point in there.
I KNOW I have a tendency to switch too rapidly.
You should have seen (maybe better that you didn't)
earlier drafts. I had some really nauseating switchbacks
and hairpin turns before editing. But I seemed to have
missed these. I'd be interested in your opinion.
What you're describing is 3rd person limited, switching,
where as you really have here is third person omnipotent.
In that POV, you are never in anyone's perspective, though
you can still tell what that character perceived. You can just
never limit the actual narration of the story and what actually
happens to one character's POV, but rather to your POV
as the director of a scene.
Ranma cursed softly to himself. Things had been
going pretty good up to now. This really _was_ a plush
layout, with lots of cash potential and he had the two girls
eating out of his hand. A few weeks, that was all it would
take, and then they could take the money and run for China.
Although Australia would be better for Genma. He didn't
_think_ the old man had any outstanding warrants there,
and he could catch up after he took care of his problem.
Just a few weeks, and the old-man was about to blow it,
because he couldn't stay away from the booze.
So Ranma is mean and all-powerful, but Genma balances
him with weakness. Hehe :P
##Errrr . . .I think I need to put this thing
aside, then come back later for some rewriting.
Mean, yes. All powerful? THAT shouldn't be
there at all.
Ahhhhh . . . I think I see the problem.
HINT: NEVER believe your own press clippings.
(Substitute Ranma for 'your') ^_^
He's not really "all-powerful" in a literal sense, but too
perfect. I'm sure he has flaws and everything has reasons,
but that's just my initial reaction at the time of reading. I'm
used to Ranma being a powerful martial artist, balanced
by his foot-in-mouth disease and a good heart. This Ranma
isn't balanced by either his foot or a good heart. This will
lead to him being a bit too unstable for a story, unless he
has yet to be seen character flaws, or is actually still a good
person but with a much tougher skin. However, I don't
see anyone good underneath this Ranma yet.
"Now then," Genma relaxed slightly, satisfied that
he'd put the girl in her proper place. "let's honor the spirits
and toast the joining of our houses." He took a generous
pull from his bottle, not wanting to take any chances with
the spirit world himself. "With Ranma's talent and your
doujou, the Musabetsu kakutou Saotome-ryuu will be world
famous in no time." He thrust the cup of sake at Soun.
"It's my doujou." a quiet voice interjected from the
corner, opposite and slightly behind Soun.
Yup, here comes the slam of the table!
##Nope. Nary a 'table' or <shudder> 'mallet'
to be found in this story. Not to worry. Lots
of blood and broken bones. A live birth,
bare-bottom spanking and the Seattle Mariners.
##
The Mariners? As a lifetime Anehiem Angels fan, I
hope they're the ones getting the bare bottom spanking!
"Heh," Genma reached over and patted her
avuncularly on the shoulder, his hot, alcohol saturated
breath making her nose wrinkle in disgust. "you don't need
to fill your pretty little head with pretend games. My Ranma
will make sure you're taken care of."
"Pretend?"
*wince* Okay, I can see where this is going. Ranma no longer
has the shoe in mouth problem, but Genma is so liquored up that
he does it for Ranma. However, Ranma DESERVES to be smacked
as much as his father this time =)
##Ummmm. . . Going to be kind of hard to do.
Ranma is a good martial artist.
Yeah, but what he will get and what he deserves don't have
to be the same thing.
Actually he's better than in the manga/anime
because he's more realistic about the whole
thing. In Ranma's case, the phrase "Never
give a sucker an even break" ALSO means
compound fractures are preferred.
HOWEVER he is NOT all powerful.
Maybe not, but if he's a better martial artist,
AND he's also colder, it makes him much stronger
than old Ranma.
He get's surprised a time or two.
Or three.
Hehe D.B. Sommer made a similar remark
in defense of his characterization of Akane's
mother as a young adult.
Akane is better than in manga/anime
as well. But then, so is Kunou . . .oooops.
^)^
Don't try to predict until at least after chapter
eight? Maybe ten. This is VERY alternate universe
and I've REALLY messed things up.
Did I mention the straightjacket?
##
It's natural for a reader to try and predict, because
it's valuable time that s/he spend reading. If I predict
that this fanfic is going to have a Super Ranma, I
usually don't keep on reading. However, I believe
you'll restrict his allmightyness (plus your style is just
so good I can't resist anyway :P)
A single word, so cold and hard Ranma was
surprised it didn't draw blood. But the old man was a little
thick when he'd been drinking. It was about time he tried to
shut pop up. The only problem, when Genma was drinking,
the only sure way to close his mouth was with a club. Not
the best way to make a good impression on his future bride,
whoever she might be.
"Pretend," Genma returned a bit testily. Little girls
should be seen and not heard and preferably not seen either.
Err...did you mean this to be in quotes or what? It seems like
you the author just said that little girls should follow this advice...
Perhaps let us know Genma thought this somehow?
##Genma was supposed to be repeating "Pretend" for emphases.
Alas and alack . . . my inability to punctuate. :(
The rest is his unspoken thoughts about the situation.
Some of this garble comes about due to the limitations
of ASCII. If I could use itallic, bold, etc. I _think_
I could avoid some of these problems. ^_*
##
I saw someone really ripped on me for this comment, so I'll post it
her, too.
rcarson@rcarson.com wrote:
---------------
Actually, this is done correctly, and I give Allyn high marks
for it. In professional writing, you usually tag quoted thoughts
with some form of "he thought," and delimit them either with quotation
marks, or not at all, while thoughts that are summarized, but not
directly quoted, are simply written as part of the narrative. The
fact that they are the thoughts of a character, and not the author,
is generally indicated by the fact that they are placed next to
the actions that they elucidate. Yes, it might be confusing in
theory, but in practice, when well written, the intent is clear.
I go on about this because I really appreciate passages such as
the one above - while some work is needed on the punctuation
and spelling in these chapters, I quite admire Allyn's writing,
and would be loath to see it changed.
-----------------
I see several issues here. First, his style is not including the
traditional <> or LALA, thought Ranma. I agree, and I rather
enjoyed it throughout the entire fanfic. However, in this one particular
point of the story, to me, it read as if this were the fact of the matter,
and not the thoughts of one character. Because it directly appeared
after dialogue, where action that accompanies the dialogue usually
appears, I found it rather disarming. It sounded like something
typically written as "fact" rather than thought or POV. I had to
double check to make sure Genma didn't actually say it.
There are dozens of ways to approach it, but as it has been
written, it sounds like it's the view of the author that the statement
is true. Not being a frequent reader of Younge-san's writing,
I'm afraid I don't have the benefit of recognizing this statement as
thought process.
Something I'd suggest doing is either "Genma felt that..." or
a different approach with "Being talked back by a girl made
Genma reiterate the message in his mind" or something to
that degree. It's a very harsh statement, which needs to be
known that it's Genma's POV. Whether Younge-san takes
my advice or not, of course, is his own preference. I merely
advised otherwise from my own particular reading experience.
Another issue is that Younge-san's punctuation isn't good.
In this copy of the story (again I'm not a pre-reader nor a
frequent reader of his work), it was very well done. Any
perceived error is most likely preference or taste, rather than
a major problem of his work.
The last issue is that I'm trying to change his style...? Not sure
if you meant that by the very last sentence or not, but I seriously
doubt he's going to change his style of writing just because I
mentioned that the way I read it, it looked like the text wasn't
Genma's thought. I merely advised him that it didn't appear to look
that way.
Thank you, though, Carson-san. I wasn't aware he had 20+
chapters had been written. I, however, will wait for them to
appear on the FFML, as I barely have time to read anything
other than my own assigned reading or the writing of those student's
whom I tutor.
Kasumi paled a little at the sight of the slender
pieces of wood, quivering upright. Something she'd seen
only once before, after her mother's funeral.
##Q: did this bit make sense? I was trying to convey
a cultural tid-bit here. Sticking the chopsticks upright in
food is a sign of death. VERY bad form to do this
in family setting like this. As far as I can tell from
my reading, this indicate Genma is already dead
or Akane want's him dead. Want's to make him
dead? At any rate, very bad thing. I'd appreciate
any insight from someone who knows the culture.
And if this bit worked the way I wanted it to.
I'm sorry. I had no clue that this was a reference to
Japanese culture. It is a very important point, it seems
that you might want to somehow convey this knowledge
a bit more clearly.
SIDE NOTE:
A reader who knows the culture, liked the scene with
Akane, but thought Kasumi's bit was unnecessary.
I thought it was needed so readers unfamiliar with
the culture would understand why this was bad.
However thought it was a bit clumsy when I did it.
But, I couldn't come up with a better way to
try to get across this bit of culture.
Q: Do I even need to try? Or is it enough to
leave it at Akane's actions?
OR, do I need to show this, just in a better way?
##
Wish I could answer. I like the touch now that
I understand it and hope you keep it in regardless.
<SNIP>
Ranma resisted an urge to smack the old fraud.
_He'd_ worked and sacrificed? He'd worked and sacrificed
_Ranma_ for ten years, he meant.
True...though this Ranma seems more like he went along with
it then being dragged along...
##Ranma was a child at the start of the whole thing.
What could he do? Abused children almost never leave home.
And Ranma is in the middle of nowhere most of the time.
Did I mention India?
Genma is HOME to Ranma. Maybe a bad home sometimes,
but it's familiar. The only thing he's ever known.
He never had this attitude, though. I realize as a child, he would
not have been held responsible for actions that his father put him
up to, but now that he's a young adult, I do. He's still putting up
with it and seems to gain at least some amount of joy from it.
The difficulty was, Genma would usually get greedy,
lazy, drunk or all three, before they made a score. In which
care they ran like hell, a half-step ahead of a date with hot-
tar and goose-feathers.
Yup the Genma is Ranma's crutch, so he can't take over the
world ploy... kinda like Brain's Pinky.
##I warned you not to try to guess until much later. ^_^
Remember, Genma taught Ranma everything Ranma
knows. But Genma didn't teach him _everything_ Genma
knows. ^_^
##
Heh you warned me in this same comments, so it's hard
to deploy them in the past =)
<SNIP>
up in anger, the worms were looking downright appetizing.
Long years on the road, having to deal with Genma's
mistakes, clean up after him and act the peacemaker, enabled
him to control his tongue. Barely.
Ranma has improved in the art of tact. (77)
Ranma has improved in the art of subtlety. (84)
Ranma has improved in the art of being Uber. (100)
##I'm getting a little worried now.
MUCH more tact. And subtle? Oh yes.
He shouldn't be coming across at
that 'uber' if you mean Super-ranma.
If you mean 'other' as in different, then
yes. To a larger degree. But if he's
coming across as Super-Ranma, then
I've not done my job. :(
With what evidence I've been presented in these
two chapters alone, I came to the conclusion that I
was going to be reading about the Ranma, who uses
his significant powers for evil instead of good, without
all the nuances that kept his character balanced in the
original manga and anime. Don't be worried if you've
already wrote most of, or the entire 30 chapters. I'm
sure you pull his character off more balanced.
I've just read a lot of stories where Ranma isn't balanced,
and he goes around righting wrongs, or taking advantage
of everyone. He *seems* to have this power from what
I've read so far. His wit/charm/acting just seemed too much
in addition to his intense physical skills.
##
<SNIP>
"I'm too young." she tried again.
"Nonsense," Soun said, shuddering inside at the
thought of his baby, _any_ of his babies, with a . . .a man.
"You are both at the perfect age. You haven't gotten set in
your ways yet".
Gag
##But an argument I've heard used.
I know, that's why I gagged. It was a reaction to Soun, not your story =)
##
"I won't marry a man who can't defeat me." She
countered, with absolute conviction.
"What!" From Genma and Ranma, almost in stereo.
Now she's sealed her fate. UberRanma is here to turn her
into one of her own health drinks.
##Ummmm. . . I'm going to have to get
chapter 3 posted REAL soon. Friday at the
latest. Sooner if traffic is light on FFML.
I didn't want to SPAM the list.
Ranma is NOT UBER!
And I didn't mean to write
him that way.
Ranma is fast, strong and
reasonably ruthless or at least
a pragmatist. His technique
is almost flawless, his
instincts superior and his versatility
unmatched by any but two people
(who aren't supposed to be in Japan
so they don't count?)
BUT, while a leopard can kill a honey-badger that
doesn't mean he'll enjoy the experience. ^_^
##
Ok, that's a bit of balance. I'll hold further Uber Ranma
comments until I read more. I didn't know you had written
so much already ;-)
<SNIP>
I really enjoyed the atmosphere of the revision of the original, but
I'm a little concerned for Ranma's ability to handle himself like a
real conman. His father, the brilliant but ultimately flawed tactitian,
and he the suave, masterful martial artist, and together they are the
Incredibly Misogynistic Duo!
##Ohhhh, I LIKE that! And, it's pretty
close to what I was trying to do.
Heh as long as Genma has more and Ranma not as much con, I'll
be satisfied.
##
Your writing is very good and the tale was very entertaining, so I
invite further chapters (30? yeesh) with open arms. Keep in mind
not to let Ranma's Uberness invelope everything though, okay? :)
##Ohhh, I think I can promise THAT!
Nothing else though.
Did I mention the Snoopy Glue?
##
Eh? Snoopy Glue? Don't think you did...
Ryan Erik
http://www.geocities.com/ryanerik99
\
##Thanks so much for taking the
time to C&C. I really appreciate it.
##
It was my pleasure. I'm happy to have gotten back a nice
detailed response (and a charged response from a loyal reader
of yours). I love debates and discussion about writing when it's
not in the context of teaching and school.
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