MOderators: I saw the ban. But...this is on the original
topic, and I feel it wouldn't be right if I didn't repsond
to Mr. Sandborn's comments.
By the way... Bickham is my family name... check the
addy... Japanese Yahoo reverses the order Japanese style.
Interestingly Mr. Sandborn does and doesn't get my point
and also make my point for me... let's go back now...
I find this section particularly curious. Mr.
Jourdan
makes a point in the first half of his rant only to
offer
conclusive evidence to the contrary a few lines
later.
I doubt this, but I do lose my way as I write at times, so
we'll see.
He argues that research is worthless unless you
live in
Japan. Even conversing with a Japanese expatriot is
worthless
as such information is so dated. Of course, further
down in
his rant he states "...returnees are not considered
the same
as them." Why does he suppose that is? Because
those returning
Japanese don't know the latest fad in Tokyo? Could
this reaction
be a cultural thing left over from the early
Tokugawa era where
any who left Japan for any reason were declared
'polluted' and
quickly executed upon return, lest they 'infect' the
pure Japanese
society? The current treatment of returnees as
'different' is
just the modern, more humane method of maintaining
the ethnic
'purity' of their race. There is Japanese and then
there is
everyone else - regardless of what fad is sweeping
the country.
These are a people who's cultural character has been
forged by
centuries of conditioning. To suggest that such
cultural makeup
is worthless because of whatever amusement is
currently popular
in that country is curious at best.
Ok. First please stop quoting Edwin Reischauer. He and
his group of boys from back in the 50's hardly give an
accurate picture of Japan. If things during the
occupation had been left entirely to what their group
(including the State Department at the time) had thought
was best Japan would have seen almost none of the
attempted and some successful strides pushed forward by
SCAP. Beyond normal levels, I take anything written by
them with a grain of salt, and have found little useful
material in any of his books for writing even a freshman
history paper.
Your picutre of the Japanese is inaccurate at best, and
your understanding of my point is lacking. You came
close, but then veered off at the last minute. The
returnees ARE different. In every way possible. ANd you
NOt living here and going by what you can read in books
and see in students around you (and you are still behind
here... I have worked with them for four years during my
university years). ONe year abroad in a major west coast
city hardly makes one truly into a returnee... although
this poser wants to see like one so he/she can get the
more lucrative jobs, even though he/she has not the
mindset and skills that a true returnee will have.
Someone who has lived in an environment with few Japanese
people for several years... they don't want to go back to
Japan. The few that do leave after a few years...they
hate it. Why? The way of thinking... expectations,
behavior, limitations placed upon because of all that. It
is difficult to briefly describe in this limited forum,
nor do I believe this to be the place. ANyway... a
returnee is different. They dress different, they act
different, their Japanese isn't as good and they think
differently. Oh hell no...they aren't
American/Australian/English or wherever they went. They
are still quite Japanese.. but when measured against a
person who has never left Japan except on vacation... you
see a starck contrast. A person who is more independent
minded, gives their opinion, willing to make waves (to a
certain degree)...and it goes on. The mere fact that
they speak better than passable English already sets them
apart from the rest...much less these other differences.
No they aren't considered different because of the
historical cultural reasons. I am far from ignorant of
sakoku. However, having witnessed the difference
myself...they just are different...so they are treated as
such. They are so far from being a pariah...they are the
hottest thing since waribashi (disposable wooden
chopsticks). My friends who are returnees and/or
half-Japanese have little trouble finding jobs...rather
instead find themselves turning down companies.
Especially with so many Japanese companies being bought or
merged with foreign companies, you find that you need more
bilingual people in the office...and as business
experience grows even further...you learn that the average
Japanese mentality doesn't cut it, especially for a
gaishikei (foreign-related company).
The point both Mr. Noakes (in a parallel post)
and Mr. Jourdan
makes here about the current cultural scene is
interesting but
I think begs clarification.
Yes it did, and can and will be simply given...
I certainly hope neither person is suggesting
that the entire
culture, the things that make Japanese people
Japanese, totally
turns over every 20 years or so. What both have
described can
best be described as masks. Yes, the mask we see
does change
with the generations, based on what's happening
outside Japan
as much, or more so, than what's happening at home.
To suggest
or even hint that the ties that bind the Japanese
people together,
the elemental facets that make up this society -
their fundamental
character, have warped out of existence to be
replaced with some
new, odd tribal behavior is just plain wrong.
I deal almost daily with college-aged Japanese
that have been
in this country for less than a year. I have seen
first hand
how they revert to their most basic behavior
patterns when faced
with situations they don't understand or in which
they feel
uncomfortable. This behavior pattern is the
culmination of
centuries of conditioning - imprinting on them the
basic
behavioral patterns that make their society work for
them.
Yes, they play 'dress up' and go to 'hip hop'
clubs. They
also dress up as Anime characters, 50's rockers,
cowboys, (the
list is endless), but that does not suggest
underneath their
costume and put-on attitude their character has
fundamentally
changed overnight with whatever fad happens to be
popular at
the time. These are still masks, masks they wear to
amuse
themselves, not something that irrevicably changes
their
national character. They are still Japanese and
that transends
everchanging superficial fads.
And what would you know of tatemae? Please don't try to
lecture me about masks...properly termed as tatemae
(outward face) and honne (inner/true face). You can't
seriously come to work in this country outside of teaching
English in Tokyo without learning that lesson. Call part
of "Living in Japan 101." Even comes as part of the JET
Programme's "Guide to Suriving your first 90 days in
Japan" guide. Can you explain erabi logic vs awase logic?
That one always amazes Americans when it comes to
business... I'll give an example for you... WorldCom has
a network outage. They have to explain in detail what
happen and the cause with a very polite, very formal
apology. If a very large customer was affected...the
president has to go with the salesperson and apologize to
the head of that company. The same goes for when you ask
for something to be done for you, but it is against policy
or not supported... the person you are speaking with will
go through a lengthy explanation and apologize profusely,
when all you wanted was a "yes" or "no" answer.
American pop culture is as much the sum of the culture as
much as Japanese pop culture is...no even less so. Kids
willl dress outrageously and dye their hair in a statement
of being different and unique...but it follows one or
another pop fad. Not entirely unique to Japan, but more
pronounced than in the US. Especially when you consider
that what kids do now could not even be imagined in the
late 70's. Something like public displays of affect...
there was none of that except in one park near the
Imerpial palace. So no. I am not saying that hip hop and
rap describe where Japan is headed... rather the mere fact
that black is becoming a cultural icon in Japan...over
whites is interesting to say the least. And the fact that
it happens suggests some kind of change in the Japanese
perspective...in that age cohort.
Drop me some real empirical evidence that there are not
serious society changes underway in Japan and maybe I'll
believe your argument. Until you do so, you only seem to
be repeating the ideas of the Chrysanthemum club (see what
I wrote near the beginning). You cannot tell me that
young couples kissing on the trains, kids being caught
having sex at school...in Yamagata Prefecture, one of the
most conservative parts of Japan, tv shows similiar to
Jerry Springer (and running as popular as he did in the
beginning), themes in some tv dramas and movies...the list
goes on and on. No you can't take everything at pure face
value... you'd have to be an idiot to do so, but you'd
also be an idiot to believe that it all means
nothing...that it isn't indicating some type of change
that is occuring in the culture. And not just some surface
tatemae change, but a fundamental change in the Japanese
society. There are a lot of factors to be
considered...economics, aging society, dissatisftied
youth, disenfranchised middle age...this is only
scratching the surface...
To say that Japanese culture is some unchanging facet of
the "national character" reeks of Reischauer and reeks of
1950-70 white American attitude about themselves and the
world around them and lastly it reeks of the politcal war
machine of early Showa Japan (1923 or so until 1945).
Kennedy very much had the same way of thinking. i don't
know if it's better or worse than paternalistic/superior
attitude of MacArthur and Eisenhower. And this "idea"
denys sociology and anthopology... hell it denys even
Japanese culture. The Japanese have changed quite a bit
during their history. Did you know that the society had
been matrilineal at one point? Did you know that the
neo-confucionism of the Edo Era was devised by Tokugawa
Ieyasu to aid in his control and conquest of Japan? Did
you know that the "Emperor-ism" and neo-shintoism of the
1930's and 40's has its roots in the Meiji Restoration and
was devised as a measure to aid ijn the modernizing of
Japan? to help create the idea of a unified country at a
time when people only knew and held allegiance to thier
local Daimyo? No...there have been a lot of changes over
the long history and especially in the last 100 years.
If I understand correctly what Mr. Jourdan was
trying to
say, I take strong issue with him on the topic of
research. As
I said above, the fundamentals of their culture is
NOT an
evolving thing in the sense that it is evolving with
the speed
of the latest fad. Good research, on whatever
subject you wish
to write, does NOT have to include living the life
you're describing.
Yes, in some cases, such is helpful but not
absolutely necessary.
Just as one does not accurately perceive the forest
and its
mechanisms by pressing one's nose against a single
tree. Only
with multiple sources, constant research, even to
the point of
making yourself a pest, can one even begin to
approach understanding
an entire culture - even if it's just the Tokyo
regional culture.
Suggesting only when one lives in a society (where
that person is a
gaijin and treated like an outsider to begin with)
can one
understand the deepest intricacies of that society
and its
interpersonal relationships is terribly misguided.
Try this. How many of those authors that you are reading
from haven't lived in Japan for an extended time? How
many "experts" on Japan that appear on tv, documentaries,
etc. have not lived in Japan for an extend period of time?
how many have no been to Japan for a couple of years at
least when doing their research? How many of them cannot
speak, read and write fluent Japanese? How many people in
the social sciences that are authors of many books...
experts in their field...how many of them have none of the
above? None. Not a single one. Do you even think that
you can get a fraction of the necessary reseach materials
to write something that can be published in journals from
the smathering of sources that you can find in English?!
You HAVE to be fluent in the Japanese to read the
necessary reseach materials...and to become that fluent
there is only one way...living in Japan. Don't bother to
bring up those intensive programs like the one at
Middleberry college in Vt. I had a prof. from there and
in her honest opinion...it's only a second best thing for
when you can't get to Japan.
On issures of
elements that make up the national character, you're
unlikely to
get much more than a superficial answer even from a
Japanese
in Japan - if they choose to answer at all. (I've
gotten the
feeling when dealing with these people that often
they may not
even know the 'whys' themselves. It's just the way
things are -
perhaps, the way things have always been.)
You have no idea as to why do you? Japanese people don't
discuss politics. They don't really talk about society's
ills and what could be its causes. They aren't taught to.
The educational system makes cogs for the economic
machine...not innovators and creators of new ideas. Try
reading about the creator of the blue laser which is
necessary for your DVD player to play your favorite anime.
Look up the article in the Japan Inc. magazine
(http://www.japaninc.com)...it dates back to about
September last year I think.
So don't abandon the library. Don't avoid
talking to that
Japanese neighbor. Just understand that some of
their current
information on what fads are popular - the current
'mask' of
Japan - is probably dated. But, if they are willing
to discuss
the whys and wherefores about the deeper aspects of
their culture,
listen carefully. It may be the only source of real
information
you're likely to get - gaijin residents of Japan
included.
You again entirely miss the point. HOw much of all the
historical, political, and sociological knowledge that I
have on Japan can possibly be used in a fanfic? Very very
little. How much can that dusty library book tell you
about the pop culture that produced that manga? That is
in fact what the manga and anime are part of... for the
Japanese it's just pop culture. What are cartoons to
American? Anime is the same thing to Japanese people.
yeah adults read comics... adults read "Cathy" and
"Bloomcounty" don't they? And besides.. what are you
going to do standing for 2-3 hours on the crowded train to
work? Again... my point is that your neighbor and library
books will give you little good information on pop
trinkets to include in your story (ala Mike Noakes). Don
Granberry has gone with a more social science knowledge
approach, but he does also ask for some up to date pop
culture info which he also includes. What is going on in
pop culture will have more to do with your story than
information on the labor commission in SCAP or
in-group/out-group relations. All that info is useful for
understanding the cultural "givens," the unspoken rules
that everyone knows except for outsiders. But to really
get it... it takes time. Studying all the books you can
and asking questions based upon them to your neighbor,
etc. will help you to get ther, but it will take you a lot
of work to get beyond the surface. And you will still not
"get" some things that you have to live here to
understand. So yes...the library has its place...do study
more about Japan, just don't think that Ryutaro Hashimoto
is still Prime Minister or something. Your data is
several years old... so for a book on the occupation...
still relevant. Where as a book on feminism and the place
of the working mother will have a bit of inaccuracies in
it.
Here's a few books to check out...all I've read, but I
don't think they're all so hot...
Transcending Steretotypes - Barabara Finkelstein
Bridging Japanese/North American Differences - William B.
Gudykunst
With Respect to the Japanese - John C. Condon
Understanding Japanese Society - Joy Hendry
On Track with the Japanese - Patricia Gercik
Hirohito and the making of Modern Japan - Herbert P. Bix
J
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