Hiya,

Hmm, Came upon this when I should have been working.  Work can wait.^_^

Hey, so should I!  Oh well...  Mind, I've been writing too much of this 
stuff... after this reply, I'll probably fade back into lurkiness where I 
belong.  I hope this comes through okay, though--the formatting on your 
rebutal came through all wonky.

		Heh.  'Wet noodle'.  I agree that Ranma's performance has
been less that stellar, less than the
		hero I'm used to seeing, and love to see.  But, as much as I
want to hit him over the head,
		I can totally see Ranma acting as he does, from the
framework that has been set up.

I suppose that's the sticking point, then.  I'm not convinced that within 
the established framework, that he'd act this way.  Or perhaps more 
accurately, he possible _could_, but that the sexual stimulation he's been 
put under has been exagerated to the point where it no longer feels 
realistic--not as realistic as the situations that the author has created, 
in any case (ie. the 'real-life' teenage life scenes).

Incidentally, I don't have a conception of him as the perfect hero--because 
he certainly isn't.  Takahashi created a heroic jerk in the manga, and 
that's part of why he's interesting (and funny!)  But his actions have gone 
far beyond 'being a jerk'--more than I'd expect an awakened sexuality to 
change him.

		One of the things I like about this story is it's
perspective.  Ranma is  removed from his comfort
		 zone, that being martial arts, and  introduced to his
libido.  Maybe, Ranma's libido has gone
		over-the-top, but his actions and reactions towards it have
rung true to me, and in the end, that's
		what makes a good story.

I think it's the 'over-the-top' that I have trouble with.  In a story 
otherwise grounded in reality, I find it borders on fanservice.  <shrug>  To 
each their own; I've probably belaboured the point to death.

		I am going to try and explain why Nabiki stepping to the
foreground makes sense and is believable
		to me.  I don't know if you'll agree but, I'm going to try.
^_^  The story is centered on Ranma, his
		 perceptions, and his views.   The thing he's dealing with
is his new found horniness, for lack of
		a better word.  Nabiki's flirting/interest in him is new, so
he would spend more time thinking about
		dealing with that aspect.  Something Akane has been
unwilling to do, the kissing incident from a
		 couple chapters ago.  Ranma isn't one to confront his
problems, unless they are place right in
		front of him, and he has no other choice, especially if
those problems don't concern Martial arts.
		 So he would be preoccupied with Nabiki, as are most people
when a new interest enters our lives,
		couple with Akane's somewhat prudish attitude towards him.

Fair enough.  But there's a difference between being preoccupied with a new 
interest, and completely forgetting previous attachements.  Then again, at 
his overcharged level, maybe it's understandable.  I'll accept that aspect 
of the story.

Thing is, it strikes me as unrealistic that Akane would just stand by the 
sidelines and watch him get swept away.  She has shown before (in the manga) 
that when her relationship with Ranma is seriously threatened, that she'll 
intervene; the Okonomiyaki Sauce storyline jumps to mind.  But she's never 
really given that opportunity here.  Near as I can tell, she's been hiding 
in her room for a number of chapters reading bad manga porn and fiddling 
with herself.

If the reason she's been unable to intervene is because she's paralysed by 
her own confused sexuality--to the point that it overwhelms even her 
unconsciously recognized feelings for her fiancee--then the reader should be 
given some insight into that.  We've been granted a single shower scene, 
near as I can remember, an almost kiss.  For her to all but disappear for 
three consecutive chapters seems to me a flaw in the storytelling.

		KP:  Hmm,  Does it bother you on a personal moral level, or
a story level.  I can understand the personal level,
		but from the framework of the story, it's fine.  It also
isn't always the job of the story, or author, to punish all
		wrong doings in any story.  If it were, how many of the
Ranma cast would have already met with death for their
		 transgressions in the manga?

Oh, it certainly doesn't bother me on a personal level.  Yikes!  I'm 
probably coming off as a bit of a prude in my C&C; I'd like to this I'm not 
one.  Nor do I think it's the place of either the story or the author to 
punish the characters.  The issue of whether fiction should carry a moral 
weight is not an easy one, and reaches way back; personally, I think fiction 
that displays difficult situations as objectively as possible and allows the 
reader to form his or her own moral judgement is often the stronger for it.

As for the punishing them in the manga... such moral-heavyhandedness would 
be way out of place in a comedy, I think.

 The thing I try and do is
determine if Nabiki's behavior is believable.  I'm not
		going to say it's excusable or appropriate, but it is
believable from a story perspective and adds quite a bit of
		 interest to the story.  If you look at it from Nabiki's
perspective, maybe you can find some sympathy for her.

Oh, I agree, her actions are believable, and I have no problem with the way 
she's been written.  She's a minor character in the manga, so there's more 
leeway in reinterpreting her personality through the addition of sexuality 
this fic is based on.  I've said it before: she's the most interesting 
character in the story.  An arbitrary punishment of her actions would prove 
unsatisfying, probably.  Nevertheless, I have no sympathy for her as a 
character.

		  She may have ruined it by her actions, but that doesn't
mean she's happy. [...] Maybe her pride
		 was too high, and instead of taking an overt chance at
being with Ranma she held out, hoping he would come to
		 her.  When she felt her actions would be fruitless, she
sought solace in another's arms.  You can say that she was
		 more in the wrong than Ranma, that her actions were
inappropriate and selfish, but so were Ranma's.

Maybe... but I've seen nothing in the story to suggest any of that.  With 
the story being mostly from Ranma's perspective, and very few hints into 
what Nabiki is thinking, I'm left with nothing for me to sympathise with.  
Her apparent inability to recognize the selfishness of her actions denies 
me, as the reader, the possibilty of sympathy.  Of course, as said above, I 
don't _have_ to like her; and it's to the author's credit that she remains 
the most compelling character in the story.

>From a writing point of view, sideline glimpses that some of what you 
mentioned above is actually true, would add, I think, an extra depth to her 
character.  All I've seen so far is selfishness and nastiness.

I think Nabiki's advances are a far cry

>from rape, assertive, yes, but

		I think that term is going too far.

I found that the scene in the bathroom, if not rape, then wasn't all that 
far from it.  The only thing that stopped it from being so is that Nabiki 
did, in fact, stop when he asked her too.  The boy was in a state of near 
paralysis, clearly confused and unable to deal with the consequences of his 
brain surgery.  Nabiki took advantage of his state to start poking at his 
genitals.  Assertive is right--apparently, she's not very big on foreplay.

		KP:  I generally agree with a lot of the previous few
paragraphs, especially
		 the question about Akane and Kasumi caring more that Nabiki
is a lesbian
		than Ranma and Nabiki's betrayal.

]snip]

Did Chris blend these things
		as I would have, probably not exactly, but I don't have a
problem with the
		end result.

It is curious how the anger is focussed, though I can see it happening.  
With her anger fully released, she might focus on the most obvious thing in 
front of her--her sister lying in bed with another woman.  In that 
highly-charged emotional moment, it makes sense.  True, it could be written 
other ways, focussing on, say, the betrayal instead, but it works fine the 
way it is.  However, I found it odd that in the aftermath, when things have 
calmed down somewhat, that Akane _still_ didn't show anger at Nabiki's 
betrayal.  That it wasn't even mentioned!

I went back to the story to check.  It doesn't come up.  Instead, what Akane 
is confronted with is:

***
	"What's not fair is that you have as little regards for your
fiancee's feelings as you do the rest of us, Akane," Soun countered.
"I can't claim to understand the depth of Ranma's injury, but I
genuinely believed he loved you, even before his surgery. I had hoped
that one day the two of you would put aside your childish bickering
and pointless romances and admit your feelings for each other. Now I
see that I was wrong-- horribly wrong."

	Akane's face was contorted in rage and fury. Her fists were
balled into tight lumps.
***

Um, _yeah_.  I'd be going off-the-wall ballistic!  She's already seen her 
fiance make out with her sister in front of her.  She's just overheard them 
admit they fell just shy of having outright sex in the bathroom.  Ranma 
admits he still wants Nabiki.  Akane's the most wronged against in that 
scenario (well, except for maybe Taiyoko), and she seems to be receiving the 
harshest reprimand.

Uh, but I'm straying.  Point is, there's very little to suggest here that 
Akane has feelings remaining for Ranma.  Instead of working this through in 
the father-to-daughter talk, we're given a speech on the dark side of porn?  
Gee, thanks dad.

		KP: The thing that's not clear from these voluminous
comments is, are you critical of the

Heh, voluminous is right.  I appologize for that, and for the major cutting 
of some of your counter-arguments I did.  I'm trying to keep this down to a 
reasonable size... if the discussion continues, I'll be keeping it short.  
I've probably wasted enough bandwith with my ranting already....

		 story because of the fact you don't like the character's as
portrayed or the way in which
		 the story is told.  I guess what I mean is you other than
not having enough of what's going
		 on with Akane, the comments seem to be that you find the
characters actions un-flattering
		 to them or morally wrong, but you like the story.  Are the
character's actions un-believable
		 from a story perspective or are their actions objectionable
on a personally moral level.

Well, as mentioned above, I don't have any person objections against what 
they've done.  I've seen worse in real life.  I do admit that I confused 
some of my earlier criticisms, though--for instance, concerning Taiyoko.

I do find some of the actions that occur hard to swallow from a story 
perspective, as you put it.  These mainly concern Ranma and Akane.  Problem 
is, it then becomes a characterization issue--unfortunately, a common 
fanfiction problem that is nearly impossible to debate satisfactorily.

-Mike Noakes

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