On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Urd wrote:

On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Rhea Seraph wrote:

Morgoth.  The Valar don't subcontract their power like that, generally.
Neither does Iluvatar.  Or possibly Sauron in the Third Age, since Morgoth
has been thrust beyond the Wall of Night and can no longer touch the
world.

	I disagree. I think that a Tolkein-esque Giga Slave isn't
technically possible, unless one sees the Lord of Nightmares as being more
or less analogous to Illuvatar. Remember, the Lord of Nightmares is the
"Sea of Gold" in which the multiple worlds of Hajima Kanzaka exist; as
such, she is creator and destroyer, mother and killer, all in one. Classic
dual god figure nonsense. ;) I think that Morgoth might be the source of
the Dragu Slave, possibly, but if Morgoth is the source of the Giga Slave,
then that brings about interesting power ideas about the Maiar. Strong as
they may have been, the Istari were probably not capable of mass
destruction on the level of Lina Inverse. Tolkein's style of magic was
much more subtle.

Morgoth was Valar, though.  Aule created an entire species by himself.
With the help of only one other person, he not only made the sun and the
moon, he made the great lamps of which the sun and the moon are but a pale
reflection.  I think Morgoth could grant a lot of power.  On the other
hand, mortals survived fighting him hand to hand so...

	Doutbful, but interesting. Really, the charm of Lina Inverse and
company are that they are HUMAN, the power of light and dark, as Filia
puts it in Slayers Try. She is a powerful human because she doesn't
recognize limits, and such can reach her potential much mroeso than

There are no non-Maiar wizards left in the Third Age, though, except for
the Elves.  The humans never had much magical lore, and they've pretty
much lost it.  Although she'd make an interesting disciple of one of the
two wizards who went east and fell out of the story.

	I disagree again, maybe because I'm a big Slayers fan and I wanna
defend my favorite characters. ;) I personally think in terms of raw
destructive power that Lina would be a match for a Balrog. Zel and Amelia

The Balrog were Maiar.  They are seriously scary people.  Not impossible
to beat, but pretty dang tough.

who was only beaten after killing 80 trolls by himself, and that only
happened because the bodies built up and he couldn't move.  FA people are
tough.  Luthien sings one of the Valar to sleep.  Iya.

	Right. Remember, too, that the ace in the Slayers hole is
Sylpheel: for some reason, the First Age people weren't able to get around
death very easily. With Sylpheel around, Death is not quite as much of a
hassle. ;) And the thought of Filia running around in the first age as a
Tolkein dragon would be truly terrifying.

Heh.  Well, only Iluvatar has full power over life and death in the
Tolkein universe, although Mandos can release fallen elves from his
halls, and the Valar have some power over who recieves the gift of
immortality and the gift of death.  It's important to realize death is a
gift to mankind by Iluvatar, not a curse.


John Biles
Emperor of all He Surveys
http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html

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