I'm sorry but I gotta throw my two cents into this one.
Go ahead.
Hi folks, and sorry about this. I need some info for a
fic-in-progress
and
don't quite know where else to turn.
Have you tried going out to your local book store and picking up a
Japanese/English -English/Japanese dictionary? That is what
most people
would do when trying to use words from a language they don't
understand.
Actually, yes I did. The library rather than the bookstore, I'm afraid -
this po' boy can't quite go out and BUY everything he wants.
Q. In Japan, what are some common generic exclamations? I'm looking
for
equivalents to American exclamations such as:
Q. If you do not know the words for these expressions what makes you
think your readers will? If you are looking for English language
equivalents, why the hell don't you just use the ENGLISH!?
- God. ("God only knows where that idiot is now.",
he's sending spam to the FFML
(The commonly accepted word for a deity in the Japanese
language is Kami
or Kami-sama, by the way. Also Spirits "Rei" and Ancestors
"Sosen" can
be used in the same context. However not only is the entire
structure of
the Japanese Language different from English, but their usage and
frequency of explicitives can vary from district to district and by
education level, etc. In other words just getting a Japanese word out
of a book is NOT going to make your fic all that better nor
impress your
readers.)
I realize that... and the reason behind my questions were not 'to impress my
readers'. Yes, I want to write something worth reading. Yes, I want to
create a good story. Do I care if I've 'impressed' people with my mastery
of a foreign tongue? No.
Sure, I like it when people praise my work (not often ;), but it really
isn't all that important to me. I like it more when they take time out to
critique it and point out where I've gone wrong.
Just because I _can_ write the whole thing in English doesn't necessarily
mean it would work better that way, either... there are some concepts in
every language than cannot be translated exactly without losing their
meaning. I've studied three languages (sorry, Japanese isn't one of them,
or I wouldn't have asked these questions) and each one has different
meanings behind what would be the same word if translated literally - that's
the reason studying the culture is just as important as studying the
language.
Rest assured, I have no intentions of turning out page after page of
half-English, half-Japanese drivel.
- Hell. ("What the hell happened to him?", "What in the nine
hells hit
me?",
etc)
The word for hell is "Jigoku", again this can be taken out of context
and mean nothing to your readers, there is a perfectly usable word in
English that means the same thing. Not to mention the fact that most
Japanese do NOT believe in the concept of a Heaven and Hell like the
Western societies do.
Thanks for the clarification. THIS is the sort of information I was
after... now that I know this, it will help me make sure I don't goof in a
characterization (my biggest problem).
I shouldn't have worded my post the way I did, I see. Looking back, it
means something different than what I was aiming for... all I can offer as
an excuse is that I was having difficulty finding the correct words in
English to fit the question I wanted to pose (this is a common problem of
mine).
I was not asking for these because I wanted to use the Japanese words in a
fic. As you've pointed out, the majority of the FFML does not speak
Japanese, and the only reason anybody could have for using them would be to
'impress' people... although I've found that reading works with many
incomprehensible words in it doesn't impress me at all.
The reason I asked is twofold: first, I was curious. Like I've said, I've
studied other languages and always learned new things from each, based on
what a word means in reference to that culture. For example, 'Go with God'
in English has the same literal meaning as 'Vaya con dios' in Spanish... yet
they can have a slightly different meaning in reference to their culture.
The same is true of Japanese (on a much larger scale since American culture
and Japanese culture are vastly different in ways). I want to find out, so
I can have a better idea of how the Japanese think. This could be important
when writing a fic, no?
Second, I've tried tracking down this information in other places... online,
at the library, and so on. These are all _literal_ translations of
different phrases... I'm more after the meaning behind them. What beliefs
influenced the structure of _this_ particular phrase? And so on. Granted,
most people on the list will be just as oblivious as I am to these... but
there may be some people on the list who can answer. Obviously, I _could_
spend many many hours reading in the library, or I could possibly find an
exchange student willing to sit and talk with me and not be offended at some
of my questions (this is a greater risk than supposed), but I don't have
that kind of time.
This doesn't mean I think the people on the list do, but some of them may
know offhand. If so, that saves me time and also lets me write this fic
faster.
Thank you for your help on this. Again, please reply _privately_ so
Tybalt-sama doesn't have to hit the big red button... ;)
I understand you want private replies to this but this is a
subject that
I and many others have addressed on the FFML before. This
info is good
for all writers especially newer ones. The FFML is composed of a
majority of ENGLISH speaking writers. Sure some of us study languages
and some of us are even bi or tri lingual. That is not the point.
I've seen replies on this sort of subject before, yes. But usually (not
always) they centered around 'what do I tack on after so-and-so's name?' or
something similar, and aren't really helpful to me. Again, I should have
worded my post differently.
The premise of the fanfic writer is to take an existing work
of fiction
and make it better, (at least make it better to you), on this
particular
list we focus on the genre of Anime, or Japanese animation.
Please READ
the FAQ if you would like further information on this subject.
I have, MANY times. This does relate to a fic (as required by the FAQ), I
asked for private replies (as suggested by the FAQ), and I have no
intentions of starting a humongous thread with it (not mentioned, but
definitely important). I just wanted an answer to my questions, and having
seen the wealth of knowledge available on the FFML, it seemed a natural
course to ask. Many others have done similar, but none of their answers
helped me on this particular problem.
Now my
question for you Brian, (yes I am aware that I have stated
this in times
past,) is why do you want to use Japanese words in your writing?
There are certain phrases and objects that simply work better in
Japanese granted. For example honorific suffixes such
as -chan, -san, -oneesama, -kun etc. Work a lot better than their
English equivalencies. Also words like dojo and kenpo have become
almost as much English as they are Japanese.
I agree with you completely, and I have no intentions of using Japanese in
my fics beyond honorifics and commonly understood words, and only if there
is no better way to say it in English.
What is my point? Well what are you trying to do? If you are writing
your story simply for yourself and do not care to ever post it, or if
you do post it will not care what your readers think. Then you should
write in the style that pleases you. If you are writing for an
audience, and you have chosen the FFML to be your audience. Then not
only have you chosen one of the most picky places to post a
fic, but you
have also chosen a group of writers with quite a few brilliant minds
among us. This list is an excellent place to learn how to write.
However one of the things that really annoys myself as well
as a lot of
others here, is the over use of partial Japanese phrases in a story.
Thrown into a fic simply to add "flavor" or "realism" as I
have heard it
called. And that's great. But up to a point. Let me give you an
example...
"Ohayo Kasumi-oneechan, breakfast was great today... [Ranma enters
room], Ranma no BAKA! [storms off, Ranma sweat drops]...Nan
da yo? What
did I do Kasumi? All I did was walk in the room and then she yells at
me! Chikuso! kawaiikune stupid tomboy! [ranma storms off]"
The above example is exaggerated I grant you. But it proves my point.
A
passage of a story written partially in Japanese and partially in
English tends to drive people nuts! Even here where the context clues
are clear. It doesn't necessarily mean your reader really knows what
the heck is going on. Here is that same passage written again in all
english, save a few points.
"Mornin' Kasumi-oneechan, breakfast was great today...
[Ranma enters
room], Ranma you idiot! [storms off, Ranma sweat
drops]...What the hell?
What did I do Kasumi? All I did was walk in the room and
then she yells
at me! Dammit! Stupid uncute tomboy [ranma storms off]"
All of a sudden light bulbs are going off in a few people's minds and
everything is clear with regard to what is going on. Kasumi-oneechan
can be left in there and even if people don't really know
what it means
they will learn so sooner or later, and learning is a good thing.
In summary I ask you, do you want your fics read and enjoyed
by others?
Yes.
But more importantly (to me, at least) I want to be able to say 'I wrote the
best damn fic I could!' and that means I've got to learn more about Japanese
culture than I have.
Hence my question.
If you answered yes then I beg of you and all the writers out there to
tone down the usage of your Japanese in your writings. If you
absolutely insist on using as much as you can, at least have the
courtesy to include a glossary for your readers that bother
to continue
reading, so they will know what is going on.
And that's my two cents.
Thank you.
Again, I apologize - I should have worded my question better in the first
post.
Um... just curious, but did you ever get time to answer the second question?
Or even read it? It was the more immediately useful of the two.
===============================================
Sir Asayogure Knight of the True Fianc� #74
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Author of the "Ranma Gets A Clue" series:
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********************************************************
Asayogure is nineteen, "Akane said. "He is a
'pathological-techno-fetishist-with-social-deficit.'"
"A What?"
"Otaku."
From Idoru
By William Gibson
********************************************************
"of all the things I lost.....I miss my mind the most...."
Do you think this sigline is long enough yet?
Signing off -Asayogure
==============================================
-=sofaspud=-
sofaspud@ior.com
brianp@nhspokane.com
http://www.ior.com/~sofaspud