On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Nightman wrote:
On the elder Gods/Great Old Ones concept: The idea of a human-friendly
force was added by thosewho came after HPL. IMHO, the uttersmallness of
man in the face of the Old Ones fits better with the EVA. Up to you,
authors, but if Third impact inovlves hoary Nodens smiting Deep Ones, I'll
be as disappointed as I was for the original End of EVA.
Then David Johnston countered:
That is not entirely true. Nodens, the relatively nonhostile Elder God, was
introduced by Lovecraft in a Dreamlands story as were the comparatively harmless
nightgaunts (who, being comparitively harmless and not having any mouths
obviously
weren't the creatures summoned from Aldebaran).
Right. Nodens is an HPL creation, not something cooked up by a contemporary
or successor. Later authors may have embellished his concept of a
mostly-distant and impersonal force that opposed the Old Ones, but the precept
was his. I think this rubbish got started by certain critics who had
prejudices against some of the later writers (for instance Sandy Peterson,
author of the Call of Cthulhu RPG, who practically ranted about the Mythos
being polluted by 'later creations' in the foreward of one of the editions). I
think these people have convinced themselves that all the additional material
came after HPL died, or was done with none of his imput. But the truth is
that Lovecraft had what amounted to a huge fanfic corps and he generally
approved of their additions and expansions; he certainly corresponded and
commented on them!
Also, unless August Derleth lied though his teeth about it, HPL described to
him that his original concept for his mythos was that a group of beings reined
over the Earth long before man arose until they lost their foothold on our
reality by overreaching themselves and being smacked down. Cthulhu isnt' in
his city in suspended animation because of a meteor or a bad astrological
aspect ... he was SEALED in there. If someone didn't lock him up and all but
throw away the key, explain why he and his peers haven't just popped back out?
Sure some of them are loose (though limited) -- Nyarlathotep and Yog-sothoth
for instance. But even they are shown to need help. Sure Lovecraft's stories
imply a doom is descending but ... it's a doom we'll have to participate in
ourselves. Until we stop fighting against that mind-bending fate, it won't
happen. Cf., "Call of Cthulhu."
Again, I am misunderstood. Its my fault, I wasn't clear enough:
I'm all for Nodens.
Nodens is NOT, however, from his actions/descriptions in his story (The
name of which escapes me), human-friendly. He is merely not human-hostile.
Additionally, the fact that GC was sealed away by Someone does not imply
that They, whoever They are (not necessarily Nodens), are human-friendly.
The enemy of my enemy is not always (and is, in fact, rarely) my friend.
An example of this being that in "Horror in the Museum", Shub-Niggurath is
said to be in conflict with the extremely-human-hostile force in that
work. this does not, however, make Shub-Niggurath Your Friend.
And I'm NOT opposed to "after-influences" (As I said, Campbell is great in
my eyes), merely those that give humanity allies far more powerful than
the GOO. Once that happens, it can still be mighty-fun, but I no longer
see it as Mythos.
(Well, neither did Gainax...but thats a whole 'nother gripe) >
Welll... the highest aspiration of Kaballism is to experience certain higher
truths ... insights or visions if you will... that are associated with the 10
sephiroth. It's generally recognized that the highest _cannot be experienced
as an INCARNATE human being, especially the final one, "reuinion with the
source" essentially rejoining with God. (Think about EoE in that light.)
I have. EoE is, to me, a PERVERSION of that concept. Gainax used Kabbala,
just not very well. No matter what Gainax says, Ein Sof is not a giant sea
of blood. And Gendo is NOT Yesod.
My dislike for EoE exists on multiple philosophical levels.
Cherubim is good enough here:Its a word recognizable as a type of angel,
and any of the others that are suchare immediately though of as high
levels (Seraphim, etc.)
Actually, cherubim and seraphim are the two highest ranks (which is #1 varies
a bit) but I distinctly remember the phrase "cherubim and seraphim and all the
hosts of heaven."
Mr. Biles commented that
Ritsuko is not a master of the Kaballa, nor particularly a genius of
Angelology. :)
Did Ritsuko name them? I hear her announcing the name "we" picked. Wouldn't
those who knew better have imput? I'd rather see a more obscure angelic name
used -- Auphanim for instance. Though, after looking it up, I see the angels
associated with the lowest Sephiroth ARE actually the Kerubim. Oh well, it's
just a handle for the byakee anyway. I'll just chalk it up to ... uh, Mr. Get
Me Drunk and Pump Me for Info suggesting it. Yeah, that works...
The big B pretty much sums it up here: Rits (or whoever picked the name)
is not infallible. I'd just add that precision isn't key, but
recognizability as a type of angel is.
Part of the reason I read Eva fanfiction is because I hope that someone
might replace the end. (Let's not let this become another "EoE SUX!" "EoE
RULZ!" thread, ok?)
David Siegel
dhs28@columbia.edu
On Vacation-Delayed Response Until 1/17
(I don't HATE the movie, just its message. As a work, the movie is
excellent.)