Time for yet another ramble on IMBS by the rambling man himself!
(I can see you're almost as enthused as I am...) ^_^

At 08:55 PM 10/8/98 PDT, Freemage . wrote:

	The other debate I've noticed concerns the deathcount: Ukyou,
Shamps, not the Hibikis, etc.  Shamps didn't bother me, gruesome as it
was, since it did display to Akane something important.  The method of
removing Mariko, as someone else suggested, did come across as fake --
c'mon, she _did_ fall down a mineshaft; if you needed her out of the 

way,

a less contrived method could've worked.  And I don't understand any
argument against Akane suggesting she was a murderer in that fight -- 

all

the Tendo did was defend herself; she had no idea a hole was there.

OK, I think I need to explain myself, here.  (I knew this was gonna 
happen... My fault for wording it poorly.)

I think the double arrows, the >> are from Mike Noakes, but an identity
wasn't given in the message, so i'm not absolutely sure....

<sigh> I mention the very same argument earlier, and nothing, nada....
Mike says something and....
But am I bitter about it? No! I say! I'm much to busy being bitter at
a whole host of _other_ things! ^_^
(just had ta slip that in folks, I really did....)

I am not saying that Akane would have been a murderer.  I do think that 
if Mariko had really died, however, that _Akane_ would have viewed 
herself that way--or at least bearing much of the responsibility for 
Mariko's death.  We, the readers, might feel differently, but we're not 
the ones there.  Her thoughts as she was looking for Ranma after the 
fight indicate her mind-set pretty well.  She _felt_ responsible.  
Without a lot of very good counseling, she would have either consumed 
herself with guilt, or overreacted in the other direction by forcibly 
squelching much of her conscience.

I do feel that Akane, as an enabler and a passive reacter in this drama, 
ultimately contributed to the final body count.  Was she the only person 
bearing that blame?  No.  But she should receive her fair share of it.  
I guess the reason I pushed it so hard in my original argument was 
because of all the folks blaming the Hibikis for practically everything.

The question is what is Akane's fair share of the blame? How much of it
can we attribute to her for her lack of insight, for her unclear vision?
Ranma did, after all, manipulate her magnificently, playing her like a
violin.

Someone said that Akane and Ukyou were trying to help, and that those 
intentions should count for something.  Well, the same argument should 
apply to the Hibikis.  Remember, they firmly believed that Ranma 
_would_--not might or could, but would--kill Akane when he tired of her.  

That would have been me, I believe. Should it though? Should we apply
intent to the Hibikis? Very well then. They intended to kill Ranma in
a painful fashion, the more pain the better. This they decided to do
years before they had met Akane, or even conceived of her existence.
Their argument that Ranma would kill Akane when he tired of her smacks
of rationalisation to me; of trying to vilify Ranma even further, to
make any actions or tactics they use to get him more palatable. 
	A very human reaction, I'm afraid; something we have a tendency
to do, to make the enemy evil, because that means we are good. Don't
believe me? Take a look at some war-time propaganda. You see, when you
hate someone, you make them less than human, they become not-a-person
and any action you do against them becomes justified. At least, so far
as I've observed, so far as I can comprehend hate.
	That Ranma had contemplated killing Akane is not relevant to this
argument, whether they were right or wrong is not the point here, we
(well, I, at least) are not talking about such terms, we are talking
about intent. At the very most, this fear of the Hibikis, what Ranma
might do to Akane, might serve as a further spur to their actions-- but
their main intent was not to help Akane, only to kill Ranma. Helping
Akane would have been considered an added benefit, a nice side-effect,
if you will, but not the main point.
	For Akane and Ukyo, helping was their main intent. To see the
situation resolved peacefully and to help Ranma were their main
purposes.

Now, from the Epilogues, we know they got it at least half-right:  He 
was planning on killing her.  They were wrong about his motive, though.  
>From his POV, _anyone_ capable of causing him to be the least little bit 
out of control of his own heart was a threat.  That means Nabiki (who 
made him angry) and Akane (who made him happy).

So who deserves more blame?  The two who understood Ranma's motives, but 
failed to realize how far he would go, or the two who didn't give a damn 
about why, they just knew how dangerous he was?

On one hand we have two people trying their best to help Ranma overcome
his problems, and on the other hand we have two people who are actually
part of his problems, would you not say? Did they ever consider any other
option beyond death? No, they did not. For the Hibikis, it was not about
removing a danger, it was not about the safety of others or justice, it 
was about vengeance. There was no altruism in their actions.

Now, if we take a look on Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development,
we find that Akane and Ukyo are most likely acting under conventional
morality, specifically, stage 3 (wherein reasoning is based upon pleasing
others and being a good person).
	The Hibikis? I'd have to say that in this case they're operating
at a preconventional stage, I'd hazard a guess and say stage 2 (reasoning
is based upon self-interest-- and it's in their own interests that
Ranma die because it will slake their thirst for vengeance, and lay to
rest the memory of Ryoga's demise).
 
	For Shampoo, it was about removing a danger-- this is made clear
from her entrance as Tsen Wu. Unlike the others, she did not hate
Ranma, she regarded him as an elemental force, like a hurricane or an
earthquake-- an act of nature and nothing more.

Just leaving him alone would not have been an option--and that's just 
what A&U wanted everyone to do.

Why would it not have been an option? The actions of Mariko, Koji, and
Tsen Wu/Shampoo brought matters to a head quicker. Who knows what might
have happened if they left Ranma alone-- it is possible that in a more
peaceful environment, one without all the stress and combat, that Akane
and Ukyo might have been able to convince Ranma that he needed 
professional treatment.

OTOH, Mike, I think you missed one major point about the tape:  Nabiki 
gave a very accurate description, not only of the fact that she was 
going to die, but that it was going to look like an accident.  Remember, 
too, that Akane had to witness Shampoo's brutal murder to fully accept 
what Ranma was.

But if Akane hadn't witnessed Shampoo's murder?
The thing about a conspiracy is that it is difficult to disprove, because
any act to discredit or disprove it can always be seen as an attempt to
cover it up, to keep the conspiracy going.
	The reason it looked like an accident might have actually been
because it was an accident, but according to the logic of Nabiki's tape, this
only lends credence to her arguments.
	Now, we do know that Ranma did push her, but we also know that he
jumped out after her as well. So, in a way it was both not an accident
(since he did push her) and an accident (because he tried to rescue her
but failed).
	What you may be forgetting about the tape is, that while Nabiki may
have been accurate, it is still just supposition. She could not actually
know these events would unfold as they did at that time, only after the
incident and then it was too late. Like this argument, Nabiki's tape is
an extrapolation, an interpretation, an exercise in logic, and not
necessarily reality.

You know, I think I'm beginning to say the same thing over and over again.
I think I'll stop now before I start shouting and ranting and raving about
how I'm right and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong; nothing is
served if we do that, other than to accumulate spam and hack other people
off (and that's a bad thing... or so I've been told). ^_^

	I'm still willing to hear other arguments and other points of view;
I'm willing to change my opinion, but I find myself needing something a
little more concrete to base it upon than only speculation. I need a
reference point or two in the text with which the speculation is based
upon. Exact quotes are not necessary, I haven't used them and I don't
expect others to either, paraphrasings are fine. Which events, which
conversations is it that give you your conclusions though? This is what
I need, so that I can form my own conclusions from the same bits you
formed yours out of.
	As I said though, I'm starting to repeat myself (see? There I go
doing it again! ^_^ ), and so unless I can find something genuinely
new to say or explore, I believe I'll stop now instead of clogging
things up and continue my writing....


P.S. To everyone else on the list above the border, have a good
Thanksgiving! I'll be gone all weekend visiting family and
friends myself... Hmmm... must make sure I've got the ingredients
for my traditional stuffing, now that I think of it....
And to all those going to AWA: you have a good one too!


Matthew "Maybeso" Lewis is:
That guy with "Maybe" and/or "Definitely" in his name on IRC
See him on FFIRC! [bachman.newberry.edu fanfic]
Sojiro_Seta on Kawaiimuck
	maybeso@ican.net
_________________________________________________________________

"Yes," Ranma said

	One word, one tiny insignificant little word, yet it
would make all the difference.

			     --Soul of Ice: Thesis (upcoming)
_________________________________________________________________