Subject: [FFML] [C&C] Let's Talk About Dialogue
From: Joseph Palmer
Date: 8/30/1998, 12:45 PM
To: fanfic@fanfic.com


	In the spirit of c&c, please permit me to do a little on your
	recent posting. 

At 12:27 PM 8/29/98 PDT, you wrote:
A major problem with too many fanfics are that they stuffed with bloated 
dialogue. What makes an exchange between characters 'bloated'? Dialogue 
becomes bloated when the author puts in more information than is 
necessary for the character to convey a point.

	'too many fanfics' comes off as wery weak, and without 
	authority, and since that's the very core of your discussion,
	I think it would be better to flesh this out a bit.
	For example, you could discribe where and when you encountered
	those stories, eg:

	"I examined every 7th Ranma fic in the archive" or

	"I have read each fic that was published to the list in
	the last week" 

	Alternately you could find an actual fic with a glaring
	example and use it directly.

	Also, "Common problem" might better describe the topic than
	'major problem'. (But back up your assertion of common 
	with specifics)


The word 'because' is a prime suspect in this particular literary crime. 

	"Suspect"? Don't you think that 'Because' is more like a 'witness'?
	I still think there's hope for this crime metaphore, but it's 
	tricky, since the word 'because' is generaly a law abiding
	citizen, and the simple presence of 'because' is not a crime
	in itself, and of course this crime can exist without 'Because'.

Here is some bad dialogue:

"That's okay, I like to help people, because I'm a helpful person at 
heart. Not to mention helping people makes me feel good, but I guess I 
would help people anyway even if it didn't feel good, because I belive 
in it. Besides, when have I ever not helped you when you needed it?"

	Oh yes, now that's bad. Sounds like something Pretty Sammy would 
	say. Or maybe Mihoshi. 

Now let's edit this to make it good:

"That's okay, I like to help people."

Why, how, and how much the character likes to help people is useless 
information. Additionally, all that useless information distracts the 
reader from the scene, and it losses it's focus.

	'useless'? 'Dem's fight'n words. 

	'Useless' carries  cultural bagage (In that it's a put down)
	that detracts from the fundamental truth of the sentance.
	
What if the focus *is* why, how, and how much the character likes to 
help people? Even in that case, the first example is wrong because it's 
a ridiculously unnatural way for a character to speak (unless you want 
to make a character who talks that way); this is how such a situation 
should be handled:

"That's okay, I like to help people."
"It's really okay? I mean, it won't be too much trouble?"
"Don't worry about it, I'm a helpful person at heart."
"Thanks--they weren't lying when they said how helpful you are."
"I guess helping people just makes me feel good."
"Phew, that's a relief. I was really nervous about imposing on you so 
much--"
"Please, don't worry about it. When have I ever not helped you when you 
needed it? Come to me any time."

	Well, it's your dialog, but the unidentified helpful person
	comes off a bit smug. Perfect, If that's what you have in mind.

	As a part of a critical analysis, including snippets of made-up
	dialog is perilous, since without enough body around them it's
	difficult for the reader to judge if the snippet really works.

	I'd suggest you use a 'good' passage from a real story, then
	re-write it to get your 'bad' example. 

	I'll not examine the actual dialog too closely here, since this 
	isn't C&C on your snippet, but on the artical in general


Remember, the key rule for any dialogue is Short and Sweet. This isn't a 
matter of taste, this a rule of story-telling.. The best fanfic authors 
don't do it, and neither do any published writers.

	'the key rule' Where did that come from? You should cite some 
	athority beyond yourself when you quote a rule as if it 
	were a comandment.

	'any dialog' Feh. I have a saying about that;
		
		"Always avoid absolutes." Get it? ;)

	Stating an absolute like 'any' can alienate the reader, since
	it pretty much challenges them to find examples that void your
	statement. 
	Backing off just a little from an absolute to 'most' or
	maybe restating it as 'a rule for good dialog' acknowledges
	that there are exceptions, so that confrontation with the reader
	never develops, yet 'the rule' you then describe can still be
	persuasive.
	
	'The best fanfic authors don't do it, and neither do any
	published writers.'

	Eeww.

	Earlier you had some advice about 'Useless information'

	I'll just type a line of useless information here while the
	irony sinks in.

	That sentance does nothing to bolster your case for "short and
	sweet', and coming as it does at the very end it serves your
	case poorly, for two reasons

	1) The first clause is imprecise (Do bad fanfic writers do it?)
	and puts you in a position of saying that all the best 
	fanfic writers get it wrong. Since this is the FFML and not 
	the badger fanciers mailing list or somesuch , you've just
	waved a red flag.

	(Btw, if that was your intention, I think you could have done
	a much better job of it. Also, you should spend an evening
	watching the sun go down from a rooftop, and reflect upon
	your actions. It does wonders.)

	2) The use of an absolute (any published writers) in the final bit
	is again detracting from your credibility, which is too bad,
	because there is a real kernal of wisdom in what you are saying.
	

	J.



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