Mina-san, Ohayou!
On 16 Aug, Chris Tendo wrote:
: Alright. There's more than a few people who I am addressing this to, so
: I'll send it to the group. All replies will kindly be directed to
: personal e-mail.
How *clever*! Wish I had thought of criticizing people in public
and forbidding them to defend themselves publicly. That would
have made many a debate so much easier.
: akun15@hotmail.com wrote...
:
: >Plus, I'm going to address a situation that's been argued about a lot
: on
: >the FFML recently (though I really shouldn't). And that is: Guy under
: >the bridge.
: >
: >To Guy: Fanfiction is about a _FAN'S_ view of a story. OOC and IC
: means
: >absolutely nothing unless you are the creator of the series. So grow
: up
: >or you'll wind up getting tossed off the list by Tybalt and Whitewolf.
:
: Okay, this kind of attitude torques me off to no end.
Agree, although I'm somewhat less annoyed that you seem to be.
: What on EARTH do you mean, OOC and IC means absolutely nothing unless
: you're the creator of the series? What the hell does being the creator
: or not have to do with it?
I still agree. OOC and IC can mean a lot, depending on the
purpose of the story.
: Ranma 1/2, Sailor Moon, and most of the other series' written about on
: thsi list are OVER. Finished. Kaput. They have been set down for the
: world to see and there will most likely never be sequels, given the way
: these things work in Japan.
:
: In other words, the creator (or creators) are FINISHED WITH THEM.
: Everything about the series (I'll use Ranma 1/2 for simplicity, and also
: because it's the topic of debate) is finished, everything that means
: anything to the universe is either there, or its not coming.
:
: Therefore, there is -nothing- that stops -anybody- from knowing the
: characters as well as anybody else, -including- the creator.
Ah, here's where you lost me. How the hell do you figure that
seeing all publicized material of a series equals absolute
knowledge of the characters that is the same as the author's?
First of all, unless you have a truly exceptionate mind, you won't
be able to take absolutely every single shred of evidence into
consideration, supposing a series like Ranma 1/2 that ran over 38
volumes. Secondly, even if you could do that, your perception,
like everybody's, is influenced by your idiosyncrasies that will
lead you to disregard or lower in importance some of the evidence,
while putting more emphasis on other parts that are in tune with
your views.
For every work you wish to analyze there are infinite correct
interpretations ("correct" being defined as being in accordance to
a majority of the evidence and directly contradicting only few
instances if any). This does *not* mean *every* interpretation is
valid - remember that there are infinite cardinal numbers, but not
every number is one.
In other words, knowing all of the series does not make your
interpretation gospel - not even necessarily valid.
: In addition, not only is it -possible- to get accurate and fairly firm
: grips on characters, it is, in my opinion, extremely, vitally important
: to DO so.
Possibly - but I fear we part company when you claim it is
necessary to keep the characters IC in every fic you write.
OOC can be a bad thing, if if exists simply out of sloppyness. If
a character is OOC, just because the author could not be bothered
to keep them IC, the rest of the story will most probably reflect
the same lack of care. In all likelyhood the characters are
simply used as a cheap template by an author who was too lazy to
think up original characters.
But that is just one form of OOC, and not every instance can or
should be measured by this.
: We are not here writing original fiction. We are writing
: fiction using the characters and universes created by others. It is
: nothing less than simple respect and courtesy that we not butcher the
: characters others worked to create. In addition, if a story requires
: the characters to be different than their true incarnation, then why
: bother making it a fanfic? Make it an original story!
Excuse me, but I disagree vehemently. In my opinion - which I
believe is shared by a majority of fic writers - fanfiction can
*not* simply be reduced to copying the original; it is much more
than that. Fanfiction exists to *play* with the characters.
And playing with the characters can mean taking them out of the
scope of the original, both in form of situations that would not
have occurred there, or in the form of OOC. That is decidedly
*not* the same as writing an original story. The draw of such
stories for the reader is to see known characters in an unknown
way. This can be overt in the form of a "what if" story, or
subtle through character development - but if you look around, it
makes up the majority of all fanfics posted.
Sometimes the reason for OOC lies in the premise of a story ("If
Ranma was a bit more mature...") and sometimes it is necessitated
by the goal ("I want to see Ranma marrying Ukyou"), but as long as
it stems from the purpose of the story and not from the lazyness
of the author it is perfectly OK with me - and I think with most
fanfiction readers, too.
: Obviously there are a few exceptions, notably parody works. And
: obviously some characters will change over the course of the
: story...hell, that happens in the original! But for the most part, if a
: fanfic isn't IC, then it's not a fanfic. It's an original work with
: stolen names and gimmicks. Some may not care about that. But I think
: that if you're going to take the ideas other people worked to implement,
: then by god you should use it to BUILD on what they did, make their
: universe richer and fuller...not just steal their ideas for yourself.
That rather depends on your point of view. Who is stealing more -
the person who copies an original author's characters and style to
produce an almost identical work, or the one who takes the
characters and their world to creativley combine them whith his or
her own vision and produce something entirely new?
Me? I strongly admire an author who manages to produce a work
that is so IC and true to the tone of the original work that it
could stand unnoticed among the source material. That takes a lot
of talent, knowledge and a keen analytical eye.
But not all fanfic springs from the desire to see more of the
same. A lot of fanfic authors became such because they were in
some way *dissatisfied* with the original. They write about
things they would have liked to see happen in the original. They
correct mistakes that they wish the characters hadn't made. They
do not use the author's characters themselves, but the characters
the author created in their heads via the original story.
That is why OOC is not the scourge of fanfiction, but a necessary
and potentially wonderful ingredient.
: You know, I looked up and down the FAQ of this mailing list, but try as
: I might, I never -did- find the section that says it's a capital crime
: to give negative C&C on this mailing list. Therefore, I'm afraid I'm
: going to have to proceed with the assumption that no such section
: exists. With that in mind, there's just one thing that I think needs to
: be said...
:
:
: GROW UP.
Thanks, I already did that. Didn't make GUtB's posts look any
better, I'm afraid. Perhaps the problem is not as easily reduced
to a question of maturity as you'd like to.
But name-calling sure made your arguments look mature in
themselves.
: Did you seriously expect that when you
: put your writing in the public domain, that nobody was ever going to
: have a problem with it?
As an aside, the public domain is something entirely different
from a public (or semi-public) forum like the FFML.
: Well, here's your wake-up call. YOUR WRITING ISN'T PERFECT. I
: guaruantee it. Yours isn't, mine isn't, Tolkien's wasn't, Robert
: Jordan's isn't, Issac Asimov's wasn't, NOBODYS IS. So if you guys can't
: possibly stand the psychological torment of finding out that your fic
: isn't perfect, then stop writing. Right now. If you can't stand the
: torment of finding out somebody doesn't -like- your fic, then stop
: writing. Right now. Or else never, ever, show it to anybody.
The criticism that was directed towards GUtB was not simply giving
negative C&C. Most of us can stomach that, even if it isn't
pleasant and sometimes makes us defensive. What he was accused of
was pointless negativity and attacks that did not serve the
improvement of the story, and possibly were meant to incite
unnecessary discussion and flamewars on purpose.
Whether that is true or not I leave for others to decide.
Since you mentioned the FAQ, let me cite it here:
* WHAT IS C&C?
Comments and criticisms. Every author wants feedback on their stories to
help improve them. After all, this is what the list is really for.
That is the crux of the problem most of us had with the C&C GUtB
offered. It did not appear to be aimed at helping the author
improve his or her story, but rather at espousing GUtB's personal
views.
Here is my very personal definition of what C&C should be: C&C is
meant to help the author communicate his or her vision. That is
the purpose of their story, after all. Giving C&C only makes any
sense if you understand or agree with that vision, but percieve
flaws in the way it is expressed. The C&C-er's goal should be to
help address these flaws, as well as emphasize the positive
aspects. If you do not like the very core of a story, if you
disagree with the author's vision itself, then *don't C&C*.
If, for example, a story is about Akane abandoning Ranma (for
whatever reason) and you cannot accept this basic premise, *don't
C&C* - if the premise appeals to you but you find the execution
faulty, by all means *do* give your comments. That is all the
difference.
If your C&C amounts to "don't write *your* story, write *my*
story", it misses the entire point of C&C and thus the FFML.
As I said, this is my personal definition by which *I* decide when
to give C&C and when not. I'd like to know how others decide for
themselves.
: Or maybe he has another reason. But whatever it is, there is nobody on
: this list that currently has a reason to complain about what GutB is
: doing.
Well, I'm not sure. His repeated carping about "bizarre"
characterizations that he attributed to Richard Lawson - and his
unwillingness to back up his claims with anything but dogmatic
assertion that his views were gospel and everybody else should
have to disprove them first - certainly went on *my* nerves.
Apparently he got banned, which I don't approve of, actually.
After all we have endured other vocal people with strong,
unyielding opinions for much longer.
: Blade
: ********
: World's #1 Fanboy of Ukyou Kuonji, Pantyhose Tarou, Kiima, Toguro Ani,
: Alys Brangwin, Vega, Mian Toris, Brad Kilsten, and that psycho soldier
: with the glasses in Windaria. ;p
Sebastian