Always nice to hear from you on this debate topic.
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997, Matthew Lewis <maybeso@ican.net> wrote:

At 08:56 PM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Matthew Lewis <maybeso@ican.net> wrote:

	Perhaps we should rename this: Stimulating Conversation on
Theories of Ancient El Hazard Civilisation....

Then again, maybe not

At 11:30 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
	<A bunch of stuff which I hacked off>

The OAV series leads me to believe that Ifurita's restraint system was
absolute, not being able to be broken by her: it was Makoto's power that
did it. Still, the possibility does arise that some might have been able
to: damage on the battlefield for instance might have burnt out the
appropriate circuit.

	I was thinking more in the lines that Ifurita and the other demon's 
of her generation were built with superior Restraint systems as a result

of 

earlier deisgns of demon's being able to overcome their restraint

systems.  

If the origional designers beleived that their programing was the

definition 

of how the demon would always act than any restraints would just be 
failsafes, and it would have taken a rebellion for them to take them 
seriously.  

	Possible, but the legends refer to Ifurita as a singular demon god, 
making a distinction between her and the others. Hence, my view of her as a
prototype, and most likely a new generation

	I take the same view, however I am looking at her as a prototype who's 
design potential wasn't recognised.  Otherwise there would almost

centainly be 

other production models.  The military mindset doesn't lend itself to

relying 

exclusively on a single weapon.

I saw it as just a case of her being thoroughly field-tested, but depending
upon the amount of time she had been activated, this could actually be
unrealistic. 

	Well it's mainly a question of how much of Ifurita's ability you 
interpret as being pre-programed into her and how much you feel is the result 
of Experience.  I am fairly strong on the experience side because I feel that 
if whoever created her could have programed that levil of skill into her they 
would have also been able to program her personality with an overwealming 
desire to obey orders which made the restraint circuit a unnecessary 
redundancy.

	She was put into use because every available weapon had to be use, but 
the Military was puting it's hopes with a different model.  Then her power 
increased, and she became experienced in using her growing powers to their

full 

effect.  The military began to use her more, however they were reluctant

to ask 

for more of her model because it took her a while to really grow to that

levil 

of ability.  The othe models started out at full power and potential,

which was 

seen as more immediately useful.  Plus public opinion would have started 
turning against the demon's with everyone preassuring the military to stop 
using them.

This makes sense to me. I think I understand what you're saying: Ifurita
didn't
really have the ability to simulate another's attacks built in, she had the
_potential_ to do so built-in. She needed experience to build the necessary
programs and heuristics to use this.
	I can find nothing to contradict this.

	Indeed, like I said earlier it's a personal beleif that if her 
programers were good enough to give her that kind of ability, the restraint 
circuit wouldn't have mattered because her personality would have been designed 
with no capacity to WANT to disobey orders.

	Another reason there were no other Ifurita units could be because, 

albeit

they are powerful, they might not be cost-effective. To expensive to
mass-produce,
or perhaps the techniques used to build Ifurita could not be translated
into terms
of mass-production easily (needed very highly-skilled technical people to
oversee
every step).
	A possibility I just thought of....

	That is a very reasonable prospect, and to enhance it, there's the 
question of how much combat experience it would have taken for Ifurita to 
really make use of her potential.  The military would want weapons that would 
be able to win the war NOW not after three dozen big battles.  Especially if 
they were really expensive.

	Before this new war, though while the warning signs were there, the

military was planing for a war with their Human adversaries, and looking
for the next generation of demon to be used in that conflict.  Taking the
US as a base, they approached several firms and asked them for their best
product to take place in a test of it's abilities.  One of the smaller
firms had an edge in brain power, but not in buck power, and they built
Ifurita as an attempt to introduce her adaptation capacity.  Naturally the
Military minds judging the competition couldn't see it's value so the main
production contract was given to a competator.  

One would think the opposite-- Ifurita's ability makes her the ultimate
soldier, or the potential to become so.

	Like I mentioned if she started out with fewer intrinsic weapons, 
she would have been at a disadvantage.  Especially since I consider her 
skill at improving on the techniques used against her a matter of

experience 

more than inherant programing.  So in her first demonstration, even though 
she could duplicate her oppontents abilites, she couldn't use the

abilities 

as well as her opponent and got her but kicked.

	I disagree, and this is why:
But she could quickly gain the new abilities. Some would have been given to
her before she went into the field, to test her ability to adapt.
	In the case I refer to (her vs. the priestesses, especially Afura),
she states that she did not know Afura's technique beforehand, and manages
to replicate it perfectly (perhaps with more power even. this is debatable).
She clearly had the upper hand against the three priestesses, who were only
saved by Makoto's intervention.

	I agree but I don't think that levil of skill in learning a new 
technique could be completely pre-programed.  She would be able to

understand 

how the attack works and how to use it, but what she did was to invent a 
superior application on the spot.  I seriously doubt that when she was first 
put to use she could have done that.  Until she got a bit of combat

experience 

under her belt she would have had trouble doing more than just tossing

back the 

same attack she got hit with.

	See above. This is viable, and I can find nothing to contradict this.
At this point, logic and speculation about it must take place, as the series
gives us no clues.
	That's what I like though, that multiple possibilities on the past of
El Hazard still reveal the same future....

	Indeed, that's one of the great things about this series.

However then the demon rebellions really started and all the prototypes

were immediately put into action.  The demon rebellions lasted several
years and Iffurita gained a great deal of power, and when the final
rebellion was ending, one of the sides decided it was a good time to begin
the next holy war.  During the holy war Ifurita became stronger and
stronger, shifting the balance of power to her side, however both sides
were still squemish from the demon rebellions and wanted to phase all the
demon's out of service.  So a peace was forged, Ifurita was put in

storage,

and the eve of god was completed and used, destroying the 

technological and intelectual base of both sides to the point of casuing

total social colapse.

I see this as a possibility, that both sides put Ifurita into storage

after

they forged a peace. I would think though, that instead of storage, they
would simply destroy her, to prevent her from being used again; after all,
what if someone gets ahold of her who doesn't really have too many
scruples? Hold the world hostage perhaps?

	I think it's more a question that they know her behavior restraints 
are better than the earlier generations of demon's so they should last

just 

fine.  But after having faced a war as devestating of the demon

rebellions, 

they want to make certain so they put her into storage so she wouln't have 
any opportunity to challenge her restraints.  And since I hear that the

new 

OAV series brings into play a new demon god she can't be the only one put 
into storage.

Possible, although I still don't see why they just would not destroy her. 
Even if they are confident in her restraints, if they never intend to use
her, why bother putting her into storage instead of destroying her. If they
were so confident of her restraints, why not let her remain active?
	Then again, just because I don't see why they wouldn't do that doesn't
mean that they wouldn't; people are like that sometimes.... :)
	From what I know about the second series, there is at least one other
demon god out there, or at least, one or two beings who could possibly be
demon gods. 

	They probably did intend to use her, they just didn't get the chance.  
After all, they put a lot of effort into security, and I doubt anyone

expected 

the Eye of God to be anywhere near as devestating as it turned out to be.
	I suspect the reason she was sealed was because they were saving her as 
a final option.  They were sure of her restraints, but A, there would have

been 

hostility toward the demon's from the rebellions, and B, they probably 
considered the development of human manerism and behavior the main reason

the 

older demon's broke their restraints, and it would have been the off time

that 

helped that develope those aspects.  Look at Aliens, specifically how the

rest 

of the marines act toward Bishop.  You put a demon in contact with others

and 

they will start treating it with at least some levil of cameradery.  Sealing 
Ifurita was a step to make sure that didn't happen.

	Could work. Gives a better reason for her storage as opposed to 

destruction

besides humans sometimes just aren't logical. 
	B) I can see this. In fact, that was why I had her sealed away in my 

story,

she was developing an emotional response, and they were worried about how it 
might affect her performance/she might break her restraints. Thus, she was
stored
for further study.
	Of course, this only works if the demon gods rebelled. My history does 

not

have that happening (although it does have a rebellion of sorts. You'll
have to
wait for the next in the series to find out who/what though. I don't
believe in
giving out spoilers ^_^), although again, there does not seem to be
anything in
the OAV series to preclude this from happening.

	Well it would provide a background fear and hate on which Ifurita's 
legend could grow.
	Basically like I mentioned in the initial concept, two or three 
generations before Ifurita was created, someone started using semi-organic 
technology to construct the brains of the demon gods.  They didn't completely 
understand it but it improved performance so much everyone had to follow suit 
or get knocked out of the arms race.  The trick is that at first no one 
realised that the demon's could grow mentaly to the point where they could go 
against their initial programing.  So any sort of extra restraints besides that 
programing were extremely crude and weren't given much thought.  And since it 
would have taken time for their personalities to grow enough to start 
rebelling, it wasn't till they were building Ifurita's generation Demon's that 
they saw the need for restraints.
	Look at Ifurita.  They would have naturally constructed her initial 
personality to serve without question, however they also added a seperate 
circuit which forced her to obey (And presumably never harm-observe Ifurita 
hitting Jinnai to prove her freedom).  And in adition to that, they designed 
the power key staff as an aditional rrestraint because she would have been 
incapable of maintianing her own existance on her own.

However, as I stated in the beginning of the story, this history is in no
ways 'official' El Hazard history, and is a product of my own imagination.
I welcome any comments on this possible history, and welcome any debate
over points I make in the story (hell, even calling them "djinni" is
something I made up. Sort of fits though, and it's shorter than saying
demon god all the time, so...), but realise that I will also debate any
points anyone else makes, if I find what I believe to be flaws in the
opposing arguement.

	That's the whole point, we all have our own approaches and 
interpretations.

	Exactly, and a difference of opinion does not necessarily mean we
have to flame each other.

	I avoid flaming on general principles.  I enjoy debate based on thought 
and reason though.

	I don't mind getting flamed per se, although I must insist on 
originality. The flame should be specific to what I was saying, and show some
creativity. I can accept a flame like that, because it at least shows some 
thought, and also that the flamer had read the work (or whatever).
	As to flaming myself, I don't do it. It is impolite, and really does
not further anything. Besides, I lack the mindset needed for it
(malicious intent and me don't really go together). Debate, based on point, 
counterpoint, logic and reason _is_ polite, _does_ further discussion, 
actually _has_ a chance to sway the other person's position, stimulates
thought, and is much more enjoyable to boot.

	Too true, too true.

Just as a throwaway idea (feel free to use, I doubt I will in the
forseeable future at least), does anyone else think there should be a
fourth priestess? We have water, fire and air, but according to the four
classic elements, should there not be one for earth? Domain would probably
have something to do with memory, enduring, something like that (each of
the priestesses seem to embody the characteristics applied to each of the
four classic elements they are connected with).
	Perhaps the fourth user is not a priestess, or not of Mt. Muldoon a 

least

(maybe in another land?). Dr. Schtalubaugh could be the fourth one (he
preserves knowledge as Dean and caretaker of the Royal Library).
	Just a thought, if anybody is interested. Like I said, I doubt I'll 

be

using it in the future (for one, I haven't decided who I would have for

the

last element-- I'm not including wood, which is often in Asian cultures as
an element because of the more Arabian feel to the series, so I'm sticking
to the four classic ones). Too much right now. Working on part 2 of

oracle,

of this series (Bugrom are next!) another El Hazard historical fic (the
Phantom Tribe, before and after they came into El Hazard), and of

course my

OMG one. Oh, that and I really can't think of a story for the

controller of

the earth element (what would she/he use? a ring like Mishtal? lamps like
Mann or Shayla? I see a different name for it for some reason).

	Well Earth is a little different from the other elements, I think 
that an earth sage's power would probably take more the form of strength

and 

durability, perhapse the catalyst would be a set of bracers or gauntlets.

	I can see that, although the durability coincides with endurance....
Bracers or gauntlets are a good idea, although I think bracers might be the
better of the two. 
	Well, still won't be using it, not for a long time at least.

	Although if there was a forth office who's resident was lost, then the 
priestesses might have some trouble if the Earth catalyst were found.  
Especially if they bonded to a proper applicant, who needed to be trained in 
their usage.  Naturally there were no records of what sort of training that 
would be so the Muldoon trio would have to improvise.  Hmm if the bracers

were 

found and bonded with Mr. Fujisawa, suppose they enhanced his strength to 
uncontrollable levels?  To the point where they started geting him to

drink so 

he wouldn't level buildings with the force generated by neglegant gestures.

	While strength would probably be a big part of the bracers, I see them 

as

enhancing endurance, turning the person into a veritable armour-cat, like
Ura, 
in their ability to soak up damage. Not to mention the ability to
manipulate the 
earth. 

	Didn't the TV series show something of the priestesses training?  Just 
because the catalyst alows the use of the power doesn't mean it's accessable or 
controllable without work.  And uncontrollable power is not something fun to 
watch.  For example, the catalyst is found by someone with an afinity for it 
who puts it on.  They get into a fight, Swords bounce otheir skin, a minuite or 
two later they pick up something wooden and get a splinter.(Ok I stole the idea 
from Mage: the Hero Discovered where Kevin gets run over by a train and isn't 
scratched, then in central park he gets a sliver off a woden bench.)

	Perhaps Mt. Muldoon is somehow linked to the bracers? Created by a 

wearer

(the last wearer) of the bracers, to give the other artefact bearers a refuge
during the days after/during/just prior to the Cataclysm? It is rather
sheer after
all. Maybe a concerted effort of several bracer wearers (it is quite likely
that
there was more than one of each of the artefacts the priestesses now wear.
These
might just be the only ones that have survived, or have been found, since the
Cataclysm). Now I'm starting to get more than a little fanciful I fear.
Ah well.... :)

	Actually there seem to be several such mountains, perhapse some of the 
mountain ranges are actually old battlefields where groups with several earth 
shapers fought.

Reminds me of a partial idea for, well, a nasty fic at least. Once Fujisawa
stops
smoking, his strength gained an increase similar to that when he stopped
drinking.
As such, when he is stone cold sober, what if he is too strong? I.e. he
can't control
his strength. Then, when he's drunk, he of course lacks even more control,
but is still
superhumanly strong (just not as much).
Also, what if his unnatural strength was buring him out? shortening his
lifespan? 
Then he would have to stay drunk, or die, as his strength is putting too
much of
a demand on his system.
Nasty thing to do to him though, eh?

	Miz wouldn't like it either.  Hmm, perhapse the two of them might find 
out that sex affects his strength like alcohol and Nicotine did.

Matthew "Shortfics are a way of life" Lewis
	maybeso@ican.net
___________________________________________________
The Second Question:
What happens when you win?
  When your enemies are at your mercy: how will 
you act then? Compromise is the temptation of the
weak; this is the test for the strong.
What are you going to do?
	-Salman Rushdie, The Satanic Verses
___________________________________________________