On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, David Johnston wrote:
I seem to have lost track of whatever point you are trying to make.
Ok, lemme try to rephrase this.
On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Phillip Masters wrote:
The question is not who came up with the concept. Lot's of anime's use
stories non-Japanese to work from. If it's a Japanese company/person
doing it, it's anime/manga. Very simple. Why? Because this is what
the creators wanted to call it (The Japanese people I mean, I don't know
who coined the term). We call ours cartoons, comics, and animated
features. They call it anime and manga.
Phil argues here that for anything to be considered 'anime' or 'manga', it
must be being made by a Japanese person or company. In effect, a blanket
statement. "If it comes from Japan, it is anime. If it does not come
from Japan, it is not."
I attempt to make a point that this statement is flawed because it is too
general:
Ok, how about films which are worked on cooperatively?
Ghost in the Shell had Western personnel working with the Japanese
studios, as did Tenchi Muyou! In Love.
Or how about Disney TV productions, or Warner Brother TV productions,
which have a lot of the work done by places like TMS (a Japanese animation
studio). Does this mean 'The Disney Afternoon' consists of anime, or
Animaniacs and Tiny Toon Adventures were anime?
No? But they were animated in Japan! They had American writers? You
just said that doesn't matter! :)
No he didn't. He said the original source material didn't matter.
The writer is a different question.
Correction, look above at Phil's quote:
"If it is a Japanese person/company doing it..."
As 'it' in his phrasing is very vague, but he's said that the original
source/writing doesn't matter. Since 'Warrior Nun Araela' is being
animated in Japan but is still being written by the original American
writers, does it make it anime? Is it not? Where does it fall?
So if we accept that -we- as a community are applying the term 'anime' to
a particular art style, what elements are we using as the judgement for
that art style?
"Art style"? The two minutes of Gatchaman I watched wasn't drawn
particularly like Ranma or Gall Force. In fact it seemed rather
similar to an animated american comic book, as long you didn't pay
attention to the story. Of course the narrative had some rather
distinctively non-American elements, such as a sexually ambiguous
villain, people dying in combat, heros falling in love with people from
the villainous side, and heros and villains committing suicide.
Busy two minutes, wasn't it?
Art does not mean drawing. Acting is an art form. Music is an art form.
Writing is an art form.
And yes, it was a busy two minutes, apparently. :)
THAT is a much better classification of what defines anime (complex
characters, etc) than 'if its made in Japan'. However, I can still find
those elements in various American things if I try... so are those
elements sufficient to define anime? :)
I think we need to move past the boundaries of nationality because those
can get extremely confusing anyway - look at some older cartoons, like
'Mysterious Cities of Gold'. A Japanese-French co-production (loosely)
based on a British novel and simultaneously produced in three languages in
three countries. Is it 'anime'? Is it 'animation'? Is it whatever the
heck the French would call it? :)
Bad?
Hey, now. I happen to -like- Cities of Gold. ;P Had a complex plot, some
very cool things (like a big mecha condor made out of pure gold -
grandiose, yeah, but still cool)... :)
Maybe it's time to end this thread. :/ I think we've effectively
established that no one can come up with a definition of -what- 'anime' is
that everyone will agree with. ;)
I think that the original work that Robert Morrison recently posted counts
as 'anime' flavored, even though it didn't come from Japan and wasn't
written by a Japanese author - but it fails under Phil Master's definition
of anime/manga.
<shrug>
Just my random assortment of coins from my pocket ($0.12) + state sales
tax.
----[Loki]-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Blackman / Anime fan/fanfic author, Game Designer/Engineer
loki@maison-otaku.net (personal mail) / Maison Otaku Productions founder
loki@thekeep.org (mailing lists) / Fanfic author / anime
jeremy@lith.com (work) / Monolith Productions