On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, David Johnston wrote:

Jussi Nikander wrote:

What are the suits made of, does anyone have that reference?  If it gets
cold enough, does it get brittle?

Doesn't really matter. The people inside would be dead from the cold anyway.

Not in a Batman: TAS episode.  And not if they were lead characters
in BGC.  Look at what Largo did to Priss.  She would have bled to death
in that spiffy new suit of hers without script immunity.

Well, I have not read the BGC RPG, and only watched the original Japanese
BGC, so I have no idea why people keep forgeting (or not using on purpose)
the oldest trick: *combat drugs*. Granted, we do not have THAT powerful
ones yet to stabilize major internal bleedings, enter stasis (sp?) state
(to avoid death by extreme cold) or accelerate one's metabolism so much as
to avoid freezing (can you say "unpleasant side effects" ?), but then we
do not have OLS, Boomers or (worse) whatever power unit they stacked into
those hardsuits either. And the military and the corporations in BGC do
not look like they would be above developing, and using such drugs. Nor
would be Sylia from using _some_ of them IMHO. Quite the kind of thing I'd
expect Priss' suit to dump in her bloodstream as soon as it detected her
state when she entered the new suit in the Largo episode. 

Also, I do not know if the technology level of BGC is high enough for
that, but the suits could include a thermal superconducting layer in the
composite armor. I *think* Hitomi Ichinohei(sp?) added such a layer to the
designs she once posted here, but I do not have that post at hand to
verify it. 

Such a layer would work well against overheating, would screw up IIR
(imaging infra-red), and reduce the damage taken from extreme heat attacks
(lasers, possibly even shaped-charge ammunition). The suits should also
have at least some sort of IR protection layer, which would not leak too
much heat at nominal operation (i.e.: During most combat operations), or
else the boomers would never lose them on their IR sensors. 

A IR protection layer might work as a very good thermal isolant against
Mr. Freeze's gun, and the thermal superconducting layer would decrease the
freezing speed a LOT (no instantaneous localized freezings anymore). Of
course it would mean the entire suit would freeze at once. And major armor
cracks would screw up both protection systems a lot...

the thermal superconductor is problematic... although the idea of using a
generic (electric) superconductive material immediately comes to mind,
they generally are less thermally conductive, the more electrically
conductive they become.

besides, you'll need a tether attached to a powerful heat source for that
to work (the idea being to equalize one's temperature from two extremes at
each end of the system), which would severely cramp the KS' style. (nb:
for normal operations the KS would have a coolant system attached anyway;
we've SEEN overheating (nene uses a pentium, or has been cooling her
computers to gain faster clock speeds) become a problem before, but not
cold. the KS operate in megatokyo, why waste time and money on
cold-weather gear?) in any case, this isn't neon bubblegum genesis crisis
evangelion (and god forbid someone writes THAT fic)

combat drugs are certainly an option (not that they'll help too much in
extreme temperatures), and have been slightly explored in one of the
BGC/Otaku fics (the same one that said that a hardsuit is chiefly battery,
and are generating a forcefield to protect the user. certainly an original
idea, but i've never taken the time to work out the science).  however,
they'll probably have drawbacks (addictiveness, side effects,
availability, after effects, etc.) that have convinced sylia not to
consider them to be a useful option. the illegal army, on the other hand,
probably has used them in the past (they seem to use everything else).
maybe, since Leon was with them temporarily, the reason he's such a jerk
is due to his exposure to the drugs ;) 

back to the heat issue...  i suspect that the KS' armor is, from our point
of view, very exotic.  lightweight composites, ceramics, certainly some
metals (titanium is a likely choice), perhaps fiber metals (which
currently have corrosion problems, among others),... diamond-like films
maybe... all of these things are probably layered into the armor. i don't
have the rpg or tapes on me presently, but I recall that Priss' first suit
(the one replaced in #6)  was denting, as well as cracking. this could be
indicitive of the outermost layer(s) of the hardsuits being a relatively
soft material, intended to absorb kinetic energy from projectiles.

all this means that the different layers of the suit probably have
slightly different contraction/expansion coefficients (unless sylia/dr. 
stingray were extraordinarilly good materials engineers in addition to all
the rest) which could be taken advantage of to rapidly cause the suit to
fall apart. of course, from the mr. freeze episodes of BTAS that i've seen
(which were really good- too bad about the continued existance of joel
schumacher), i doubt his 'cheezy freezy' gun is all that cold. after all,
it's still just as solid at -5C as at -100C, and much easier to do. it may
be possible to work out how cold the ice he makes is from careful watching
of the tv show, but I wouldn't count on it.

it also depends on if sylia decided to use adhesives (many of which loathe
cold and wet), or fasteners, or dovetailing parts, or whatever, to hold
the things together. some parts of the hardsuits may be easier to deal
with than others. 

admittedly, ceramics tend to be brittle (there are some ways around this,
the current easy way being to create the ceramic around a reinforcing
skeleton), but the Japanese have been working with them for years now
(ceramic knives and cutting surfaces are available pretty easily if you
want one now, ceramic engines are still big, etc. none are as cool though,
as the concrete hang glider) so by the 2030s many problems will probably
have been solved. (then again, in the 50s they predicted atomic engines in
automobiles that would be the size of an acorn, so...)

note, btw, that the gloves, joints and necks of the hardsuits are the most
vunerable targets; enough ice could restrict motion (as well as being
uncomfortable for the wearer) there. not as visually satisfying, perhaps,
but the KS rely heavily on their maneuverability. ice could also weigh
down the KS, making their jumpjets useless. nb: sylia's suit doesn't have
gloves. it has two manipulators. the 'mackiecab' has no gloves either, but
probably uses hydraulics that would freeze, or at least thicken in low
temperatures.

the shattering robots from BTAS (this i don't remember at all) were
probably mostly metal, and really crappy metal at that.extremely rapid
heating/cooling cycles would be needed to get that sort of effect, in
general, in real life- it takes some DAMN cold cold to make metal that
brittle. but, it's a cartoon. so. metals, after all, tend to be more
sensitive to temperature differences, and are more prone to brittleness
from a variety of factors (like coldness. neutron bombardment is another
fun fun fun cause of metal fatigue, causing nuclear reactor parts to need
to be replaced more frequently than if the same part were being used in a
nonnuclear application) 

now what i'd really like to know is what happens when mr. freeze tries to
shoot someone in a very dry environment. i mean, he must be getting the
water for the ice from SOMEWHERE. maybe he has his henchmen haul along a
fire truck or something (this is one of my complaints about iceman too...)

ultimately, my suggestions for how mr. freeze could most effectively
attack the KS would be by carefully immobilizing them around the joints.
dropping large weights of ice on them (crushing damage), scaring them
with the threat of being frozen (effective on linna, who probably doesn't
know the tolerances of the suits, and nene, who would probably react
without thinking about it. sylia would probably see through this one
quickly, unless i've been underestimating the abilities of the freeze
ray.), confusing their IR sensors by blending in nicely to the background
heat of his labs (one nit there: why is madigan wearing what sounds to be
a very complex suit to visit Mr. Freeze? i just wear a couple of sweaters
when it's -10C out. a parka if it's wet or windy. thermal underwear,
naturally. but unless she's the former head of GENOM Sahara, she can
probably take it with some generic winterwear.), and perhaps reducing the
friction coefficient of the floors.

much as it's OOC, heavy artillery is probably the surest way to eliminate
the KS.

-cpt kangarooski
-st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
-<*>