I can't believe I'm doing this. :)

At 02:07 AM 7/17/1997 +1000, Caroline Seawright wrote:

into a mirror and posing, is unmanly. Well, that's a normal thing to
think, too! ^_^

Not if he's checking to make sure his outfit is manly enough!

Which he wasn't doing. He was just posing.

Posing, checking out outfit, whatever.  Was this an actual scene or an 
example you made up?

Nodoka thinks normal unmanly things are unmanly. It's just that she
thinks some strange other things ARE manly, on top of it.

Okay, I think I get it.  So if it's something "unmanly" that lots of guys 
do, she disapproves but if it's something "unmanly" that only girl-cursed 
guys can do, she accepts it?

The first bit, yes. The second bit - huh? I don't get it.

For example: 

It's impossible to cross-dress with no clothes on.  So normal men can't 
pretend to be women to get into the cold-water tubs of the female section of 
public baths.  So this hasn't been branded "a wimpy thing unmanly men do" 
over the centuries the way, say, singing in falsetto has.  So Nodoka might 
be less likely to get mad at Ranma for doing this and more likely to say 
"he's just doing this to spy on them."

Genma would be about 40 ... Nodoka, maybe 37... I think that that is
passed the age for women having children in Japan ... But, even so...

?  I thought they get menopause roughly the same time the rest of us do.  
Thirty-seven is a bit young for that.

I mean to do with society, not physically. I don't believe that there is

Oh, okay.

much acceptance for women Nodoka's age having children, because she should
be concentrating on the children she already has, getting them through
high school, and if it's a boy, into university. How could she take time
out to start fully concentrating on a baby, when she already has Ranma
still to look after? Especially since she's missed out on 10 years of

So the instant babysitter idea isn't as popular over there.  That's cool,
actually.

doesn't really care about him, any more. Why would she go to the bother
of trying to have more children with a dispicable person like Genma,
anyway? Ewwww!

Maybe she really wants a cute little baby panda?

She doesn't give a damn about Genma, and I'm sure that she doesn't want
a baby panda - and if she did, she'd probably rather have sex with a
panda from the zoo than with Genma!

So next time someone writes a Nodoka-at-the-zoo lemon we know who to credit 
for his or her inspiration.

Who said they'd be illegitimate?  What if this is Genma's or Nodoka's second 
marriage - then there would be other children who don't have this problem. 

If it was, you would have seen the children. They do not exist because
otherwise, it would show Nodoka as the worst mother of all, even worse
than Genma - she forgets her own children! And Ranma probably wouldn't

Unless the first Mr. Nodoka got custody and chased her away at gunpoint 
(blatantly illegal, yes, but there are no cops in R 1/2) when she tried to 
visit her own kid or something bizarre like that which would make 
interesting fanfic fodder even though justifying its fit with (not in) the 
manga continuity gets a bit convoluted but that's okay.  I'm not saying that 
it's likely, just that it's not impossible.

want to have anything to do with a mother who'd rather leave her kids
out in the streets than let them move into the Tendou house when the
Saotome home is destroyed. Genma, too... and Souun... and Kasumi. If
they did exist, and Nodoka would obviously be so heartless, Kasumi would
probably be the one to invite them in to live with them.

Or maybe it could be Nodoka's first marriage and Genma's second; I think 
this kind of thing was done in a fanfic before (or was that a kid outside 
marriage? whatever); Nodoka didn't even know the kid existed.  Abandoning 
kids ffrom earlier marriages is less out-of-character for him anyway.

Or maybe this could explain Genma's weird deals.  It seems like he was poor 
for a while and maybe had to either arrange Ranma's engagements or give him 
up for adoption to keep the baby fed.  Maybe he did an engagement deal 
because he regrets doing adoption instead, for G&N's previous baby?

Somehow, I don't think that your complex explanations fit, where as
the much simpler and more obvious explanations fit perfectly well. Your
brand of logic up there is rather hard to follow.

It's easy!
Step one: Come up with a bunch of explanations ("Takahashi didn't say it 
          didn't").
Step two: See which ones are probably not likely, and eliminate them 
          ("Takahashi didn't say it did").  This one is optional!
If you stop at step one, you can't say "this is the way things happened" but 
you can say "these are some of the ways things might have happened" (which 
is cool since obvious sometimes isn't as much fun).

Maybe your high school didn't have a teacher with a "Golden Shovel Award" 
trophy and plaque in her room.  Mine did.

That was the clan household?  I haven't seen that part of the manga yet, so 
I didn't know whether or not the Saotome house was a normal one or something
else....

If you own a house that big in Tokyo, you've either got to be damned
rich, or it's an ancestoral house. And the place seems rather old,
seeing all the places to hide in the roof, etc. And since Genma is
rather poor, seeing he has to trick Ukyou's dad so he can get a yatai,
it's definately not the damned rich option.

Oh, okay.  I haven't actually seen any actual pictures of the thing.

Genma would never agree, because that's suicide for _his_ family line.
And since Genma has no honour, anyway, there's no reason for Ranma to
do what his father says. His mother is another story - and she would
definately not order Ranma to do such an _unmanly_ thing.

On the other hand, it's not her family line (unless Genma did mukoyoshi).

She's the one with the big sword, not Genma.

Unless maybe it's normal for Saotome mother-in-laws to give the sword to 
their daughter-in-laws or something?  Does that kind of inheritance happen 
in Japanese traditions?

Actually, what are the sword traditions anyway?  Nodoka carries the thing 
like it's a loaf of French bread.  She even wraps it so that it looks like a 
loaf.  Isn't she supposed to use a scabbard or something?

There are lots of ways to deal with this mess - hyphenation, handing down 
two surnames instead of one (like in Spanish), never changing your last name 
in the first place (like in Iranian), handing down your first name instead 
of your last (like in Icelandic)....

Problem - this is Japan, not Spain, Iran or Iceland. You have to do it
the Japanese way, or else you are Different - and being Different in
Japan is a pretty Bad thing...

Good point.  I just got the idea of naming all the kids Ranmadottir....

Can you imagine Ranma, the macho jerk of Ranma 1/2, doing something so
womanly? I know that I can't. O_o

I can imagine him doing much more feminine things.  Remember my fanfics?

Ah, Your Ranma, not Takahashi's Ranma. Try to argue this with Takahashi's
Ranma, please. It's totally usless having any discussion if it's on
Alternate Worlds Ranma 1/2.

I meant the "can you imagine" bit.  "Can you imagine...?" "Yes I can...."

And in "C.E." it was against Ranma's will anyway.  Hmm...which is less 
un-macho, getting an abortion or refusing to admit it's there until it's 
too late (and then giving birth basically by default)?  Just wondering.

?  You get thrown out of your family if you leave it for another?  Doesn't 
that make it a moot point anyway?  I thought it's like getting deported for 
deciding to emigrate.  I'm confused now.

No, it's like being deported for going on a holiday. It means that you
can never speak to your relatives again, and you'll never speak to
your parents or siblings, and they won't have anything to do with you.
Normally you'd keep in contact, because the family is very importaint
in Japan.

Okay, I get it.

But since Ranma isn't the younger brother, and since he doesn't have

Well, you could say he's the youngest....

You can't say that an only child is 'youngest' or 'oldest', but the
only child takes on the duties of the eldest child!

More like both youngest and oldest then, with the worst of both worlds.

I meant something more like, "A few years later A&R are still enagaged and 
still yelling at each other, then G&N rethink the details after they get 
drunk and accidentally have triplet boys" or whatever.

No point in arguing something like that, since there is no basis for it
at all. Genma and Souun want their children married _now_, if not sooner.
I doubt if they'll be waiting around in case Genma accidentally stires

Not waiting around, but more like they're trying really hard to marry A&R 
off and meanwhile this other thing happens before they succeed (I think it 
did go this way in a fanfic once)....

a child with Nodoka. Even if he did, it would be highly likely that
Nodoka would get an abortion, rather than lose time with her son at such
an importaint stage in their lives. (It was quoted that 2 out of 3

Actually, what time?  He seems to spend a lot of it at school or asleep or 
being chased around town by other people.

Somehow, I doubt that there are... it's all very silly to say that there
are! If there were then Ranma would have been with them on the trip - or

Of course it's silly!  But that's okay!

Only if you want to have a non-serious discussion on the topic, sure.

?
?  ?  Serious?  Fanfic topic?  ?  ?  ?
?  ?  ?
?

All I was saying was here's something that might fit because it's not 
impossible for it to fit.  Really unlikely, but not impossible, so it's fair 
game.

I guess you're taking the "Takahashi didn't say it did happen, so it can't 
fit" approach and I'm taking the "Takahashi didn't say it didn't happen, so 
it can fit" approach.  No problem!

Well, then, that just means that there is no point in arguing, because
you could pull anything from anywhere, and say "But what if?" And so
it's impossible to argue "what ifs", because they are Alternate World
Ranma 1/2s, not Takahashi's Ranma 1/2. I can only argue based on
Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, not whatever you decide to throw in. Since there
are infinate things to throw in, whatever I say will always be countered
with a "what if"... most of which do not have any basis in Ranma 1/2
what so ever.

Well, to be picky Takahashi's Ranma 1/2 ends at the last page of volume 38.  

In that continuity they will neither change their names, marry, break up, 
eat lunch, kill each other, go to the Julliard, nor anything because 
Takahashi will not write it.  So your continuations are alternate just like 
mine and everyone else's.  Maybe closer, but still alternate.

How can I win against an infinate number of probabilities?

You can't.  You can't lose either.  I mean, who said this was an argument?

I thought we were just brainstorming stuff that might end up in someone's 
fanfic sooner or later.  Well, I see three categories of what if:

1.  Stuff that happens after the continuity.  What if Happosai built a 
    nuclear power plant after A&R celebrated their 10th wedding anniversary?
2.  Stuff that fills gaps in the continuity (like spackle does).  What if 
    Happosai built a nuclear power plant between panty raids before he was 
    sealed in that cave?
3.  Stuff that replaces stuff in the continuity.  What if Happosai built a 
    nuclear power plant instead of being sealed in that cave?  This category 
    is the only one that looks like an alternate thing to me.

(and I don't think it's in character for Happosai to build a nuclear power
plant unless he's using it to power a lingerie factory or something; that 
was just a totally random example)

the musabetsu kakuto Tendou ryuu, not Ranma... and Ranma loses out on

Weren't the kids supposed to inherit both?  I thought that was the point.

Yes. That IS the point. And if Ranma takes Akane's name, he can't take
the Saotome Ryuu. He's no longer a man - and very likely not welcome
in the family after he runs away from his mother as she tries to make
him comitt seppuku. But a woman in Japan can inherit, I believe. So
Akane can quite happily pass on her school, probably to a daughter, I
would guess.

I thought they were going to combine the two sets of teachings into one 
school.

Hmm...I've seen people argue that a woman's taking her husband's name is a 
sign of devotion instead of just a tradition thing (without bothering to
explain why a man refusing to take his wife's name isn't a sign of being 
less devoted).  It's a stupid argument, and that's why this works....

Here's a scenario: A&R admit they love each other and make it clear.  Then 
Akane says she wants to take his name out of love.  Ranma says that doesn't 
make sense because it's not a two-way thing.  He gets confused (since she's 
not talking in terms of tradition) and offers to take her name.  They argue 
("I'll take your name!" "No, I'll take your name!" "No, I'll...").

Their dads get upset because this ends up being the last obstacle to the 
wedding, so they trade kids (Genma adopts Akane and so on) and force them to 
trade names.  Then they live happily ever after.  And the neighbors all look 
at them funny but that's nothing new.

after Souun instead. Plus it's unmanly. What are the things that Ranma
_would_ get out of taking the name Tendou, other than what he's going to
get anyway?

It's shorter.  His children would spend less time penciling in bubbles on 
all those standardized forms.

Err, 'Saotome' is actually shorter than 'Tendou', in Japanese. The
characters 'Sa' 'oto' 'me' add up to 12 strokes, and 'Ten' 'dou' add
up to 16 strokes. 'Dou' being the character with the most strokes.

So, the above point, even though it's silly, isn't exactly the truth.
;p

Okay, I didn't know that.  I thought that "Saotome" would be three bubbles 
and "Tendo" would be two, since computers can't read everyone's handwriting. 
Like the way en Anglais you'd fill in nine bubbles for "Seawright" instead 
of writing the letters.

Remember - it's Japan where they live, not America! They won't be
writing their names in romaji!

Unless they apply to Yale or something but that's a different story.