On 5/18/97 12:27 AM, Damon Casale at damoo@monet.carmelnet.com wrote:
*Very* bad idea, IMHO. Cliques are only the tip of the iceberg, IMHO.
What happens when you get people saying "I don't want to sub to this list
because <person x> is on it!"? Or "I wanna be on this list because
<person y> is on it!" Or even "This list has <person x> and <person y> on
it... how can I get one of them to switch?" The only possible way I could
see this sort-of working is if membership were assigned by lottery and
strictly enforced. Do we *really* want to go back to grade school? Yes, I
know I'm exaggerating, but I don't think by *that* much. <Sigh>
I've thought about that too, as a matter of fact. I would assume
that a good percentage of the people would be less apt to degenerate
into immaturity and say things like the former. (I don't want to sub
to this list because <person x> is on it)
I'd hope so myself. :) But I think the potential is there, given the...
um, controversies, that have sprung up over some people's fics and fic
ideas -- there certainly has been some heated language from time to time,
along the lines of "how could you *write* such a disgusting thing?"
The second problem is...well...more of a problem.
Yup. You're suggesting a split where the only difference between the
lists are the people on them; given that, I find it extremely unlikely
that any one person can find all the people he wants to talk to on any
given list... resulting in subbing to multiple lists, which pretty much
negates the purpose of the split.
This isn't a perfect solution to what I do see as a problem: namely,
that there are far too many fanfics going through this list weekly
than can be given a chance (and read) by most people, even
considering the synopses idea. Which is an excellent one
nonetheless, IMO.
I can see this as a problem, which could use a better solution; but I
don't see the random split you're proposing as a solution. I find the
example of the 'Temp' FFMLs a lot more instructive than you apparently
do. When the main ML went down, people wanted to reach as much of the
original larger community as they could, and thus ended up crossposting
like crazy to make sure as many people as possible got them. I'd
tentatively tag this as human nature -- people don't want to be cut off
from a larger social group.
The partial solution to the second problem wouldn't be to congregate
where everyone you know and want to be around is, but to go where you
feel comfortable and at the same time make new friends and meet new
people. You can still read <person y>'s fanfics from the archive.
And you can still converse with him or her via email.
<Sigh> Damon, can you name examples of when something like this has been
done and worked? I can't.
If all people wanted was to 'read <person y>'s fanfics from the archive'
and 'converse with him or her via email,' there wouldn't *be* an FFML,
would there? The point to an ML is shared discussion, which you seem to
recognize; I'm surprised that you think people would want to keep this
with some of their friends but give it up with others.
Again, it's not a perfect solution, but it can be made to work. Not
by lottery-assigned membership, either. Since it doesn't appear that
the FFML itself will split, this will probably end up being only (to
begin with) one or two splinter lists which I would run on my own
account. People wouldn't be forced to join them. People could very
easily join both if they wanted to, as well. I'm hoping that some
sort of balance can be achieved between the two, though.
This would make a *lot* more sense. I have no problems with subsidiary
lists, as long as the main ML remains. In fact, we already have some of
this happening now on the main ML, with things like the 'beginning fanfic
writers' group that sprang up in the last few weeks; I don't know if a
separate list would be a help or a hinderance for these groups, but it
would be nice if the option was there.
If you remember, this was sort of tried in March. There were, I think,
five different lists filling in for the FFML while it was down. I was on
three of them.
I was on two, and I unsubbed to one of them after a while. It wasn't
tried, really, since people weren't told, "Hey, we're trying to
subdivide the list to reduce incoming mail; don't crosspost unless
*absolutely* necessary."
Nope... but remember, people also weren't told 'if you want your 'fic to
reach everyone, crosspost' either. :( Point being, people *wanted* their
stuff to reach everyone, wanted it bad enough to do massive
cross-posting.
We can have an archive site set up for this express purpose. See one
of the other replies I sent tonight for that proposal.
I don't have the faith in an archive that you do. Leaving aside any
reliability problems, an archive is a great place to find stories you've
missed, to catch up on prior parts of a story, or get an idea for what's
been done in the past... but IMHO it's no substitute for original
delivery of 'fics. I may be grousing too much about specific
implementations, rather than the concept itself... but I have yet to see
an archive that wasn't two or three times as much work to use as just
simply receiving the posts in the normal course of the group. I actually
see this causing *more* unread 'fics, not less; I think people would be a
lot less willing to search the archive for new/different 'fics on a
different list than they would be to take a chance and skim a 'fic
they've already received.
And there wasn't an archive for all of the
list generated fanfics back then, either. Not one like 100% Anime
Fanfiction.
So? And what happens if 100% Anime Fanfiction goes down?
The same thing we did when the remailer stopped being updated. The
same thing we did when the FFML went down for a while. We lived with
it.
I see. So if we did split, and the archive went down, than it'd be 'tough
cookies' to anyone not on the list a fanfic was originally posted on? I
don't like the 'use the archive to see fics on other lists' idea to begin
with, and I like this even less.
Not to mention,
how will you know what's posted there without going through the whole
thing...
A recent additions section, which I proposed in my other post.
That would help, but it's still IMHO a lot more work on the reader's part.
The only way this is going to work, methinks, is if it is based on
content. Otherwise you'll either get people posting to *all* the lists,
or else many posts won't reach the people who would be interested in
them. Therefore, if you really want to do this, allow me to make a
counter-proposal. We could have five seperate lists as follows:
[snip content-based separation proposal]
No, no, absolutely not. You'd only subdivide the traffic on the FFML
into separate lists. That wouldn't do anything to benefit us unless we
weren't interested in one or another topic.
So? At least content would provide some guide to common interests. Isn't
your proposal also 'subdividing the traffic on the FFML into separate
lists?' Doing that without providing any halfway-reasonable criteria to
split the content is, to my mind, is a recipe for chaos. Not that I think
a split based on content is much better, but at least you won't have
personality wars getting in the way.
While personality wars might eventually happen, I'm hoping flamewars
as a result of those won't.
You're proposing a split, as I said above, where the *only* basis for
choosing one list over another would be the personalities on it -- and
where people would be *forced* to choose one or more lists, because the
main list would be gone. I think personality wars are inevitable in that
situation, and quite possibly flamewars as well.
The precise reason why I do *not* prefer
a content based split is because it still generates the same amount
of fanfic output (which is still unmanageable, IMHO) for people who
are interested in a little of everything.
Granted, which is why I don't like the idea of a content-based split too
much either. But at least content would provide an organized, reasonable
way to handle a split, as opposed to a 'personality-based' split.
Even though I'm not (and
I've already stated that), I was trying to propose something that I
felt would benefit us more than a content-based split, rather than
being selfish about it, as someone else accused me of being.
I understand, and I'm not questioning your motives; but I don't think the
kind of split you're suggestiong *would* help us.
You'd still have way too
much colume of incoming mail, as you do now, and you'd still have *no*
practical way to socialize, like used to happen back in late '95, and
early '96. GO LOOK at Gopher's archives of this time period. Read the
bounty hunts. Read the poker game. We knew each other back then, and
we simply don't, now. There are just too many faces to keep track of.
Granted, and I miss that kind of intimacy as well. But let's face it:
this is exactly the same thing that *any* club goes through when it
grows, and there is no magic solution.
Of course not. I'm not saying this is perfect. But it would be
progress in a desirable direction, IMHO.
I don't think it would be progress at all. You can't put the genie back
in the bottle. Even if you did split the list, I think people would still
remember the older, larger list and try to recreate it/reach all the
people on it; as I said, that's what happened with the Temp ML's when the
main ML went down.
Would artificially splitting the
group -- and let's not mince words, this would be an *artificial* split,
with (IMHO) all of the negative connotations that entails -- be a cure?
Yes, it would be an artificial split. No, it wouldn't be a cure.
But it would be a balm, IMHO. It would help to solve the incoming
mail flood problem, and promote socialization.
I don't see this happening, because I don't think people on the list
would willingly give up contact with all the friends they've already made
here, and I can't see how everyone would get all the friends they want to
keep in touch with on one sublist. I also don't think most of the people
want to give up the full flow of mail on the list, based both on the
TempML's and on people's reactions in this thread. I think the negative
aspects would far outweigh the positive aspects of an actual split.
I
certainly don't think so. Would artificially splitting WorldCon -- or
Anime Expo, or Minicon, or any other large convention -- be a Good Thing,
for example?
Hasn't this been done? But I digress. Splitting up a con is a
separate issue entirely. Remember that we're dealing with a list to
which people have a more or less constant exposure to, versus a two
or three day thing.
True, cons aren't an exact analogy; the only reason I used them is I
figured more people would be familiar with them than with anime clubs.
The point I was trying to make is that any artificial split of a large
group, particularly a fan group, would IMHO lead to a loss of the good
qualities of a large group, and work against the very things that made
them large. Think about it -- if large groups are so bad, why do so many
groups grow large?
I know I'd probably end up subscribed to *all* of the split ML's, to make
sure I didn't miss anything -- just as I subbed to all the temp ML's I
knew about when the main ML was down. I suspect a lot of people would do
the same thing... and in that case, you're actually worse off than
before, because now you have the overhead of managing four ML's...
The maintainer, or the subbers? No, this would give the maintainers
no end of headaches, I admit. And remember also that I offered to do
some of the maintaining. Yes, some people would end up subbed to all
of the split MLs. And some wouldn't. They'd have that choice,
whereas they don't now.
They'd also give the subbers more hassle, IMHO. There's the matter of
making sure you're posting to the right list, for one thing, and keeping
track of which people are on which list. There's the issue of general
announcements, like new web sites -- which list should they go on, should
you risk cross-posting? Finally, they're an additional hassle for people
like me who use mail actions to sort mail from different mailing lists,
though admittedly they probably wouldn't be for people who don't have
mail clients that support them.
One possibility I can think of that might work better. Clubs deal with
large groups by forming SIGs -- so that while the general meeting is open
to all, sub-sets with shared interests can have their own get-togethers
in conjunction with the main meeting. In this case, we'd still have the
main ML, but people with a shared sub-interest could get together to
discuss it in a subsidiary ML. This'd be a good way to handle some of the
character debates that go on here, for example.
That does indeed sound like an excellent proposal. However, this
still leaves the traffic problem undealt with.
Except that, as I've argued above and you've even noted, the evidence
suggests that people in general *want* the traffic, *want* the large
group as a home. The advantage of SIG ML's is that they let people who
want them have the smaller, more personal discussion forums without
losing the advantages of the one big forum.
Now, cliques are not generally a good thing, but in this case, I think
we really should start subdividing. We can always switch lists if we
want to to see new faces, but we need respite from the volume of mail
that this list is generating. IMOHO.
<Sigh> You must have a better view of human nature than I do. I honestly
can't see this idea as doing anything but fragmenting the ML community,
without even the excuse of shared content to justify it. We might just as
well give up on the FFML and create the Kun-chan ML, the Kleppe ML, the
Palmer ML, the Lawson ML... No offense to any of these people intended,
of course -- my point being that instead of having one 'fanfic
community,' you'd be moving to lots of little communities based on 'who
likes who' or on the dominant personalities in those lists. Gaaah. No
thank you. Again, no offense intended to anyone mentioned, but I want
this community to be based on fanfic writing.
That may very well happen.
IMHO it *will* happen, if you base an actual split on personalities -- if
the basis for choosing a list is *only* personalities, then what else do
you think would happen?
But we really have no way of knowing
without trying it. And again, since this ML will likely NOT be
subdivided, we *can* at least try it and see what happens.
As long as this list is *not* divided, I can see advantages in trying
sublists. My objections are to *replacing* the main list; if the main
list is still in place, I have no problems with smaller discussion
groups. There'll still be the main list, where you can get together with
all your friends and make sure your 'fics reach everyone.
I've said pretty much all I have to say on this subject, I think, so I'll
probably leave it at that.
Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
<http://www.tfs.net/personal/tbutler/>;
Mac page <http://www.tfs.net/business/tbutler/>)
...Like Alice, I try to believe three impossible things before breakfast.