On Thu, 8 May 1997, Ken Arromdee wrote:

Finally, there are cases where identical twins have invented their own
unique language which are, on the outset, very sophisticated. Considering
the arbitrariness of sound and meaning, it's very likely that languages
_can_ spring up this way spontaneously, and likely did a million years ago.

There's one problem with this last.  While this may be true (and I
haven't done the research to know or not), such "languages" will not be
as suited to communication as the languages extant today.  Why?  Lack of
terminology, and lack of flexibility.

You're equivocating.

More specifically, you're mixing up two definitions of "complicated".  You
began by claiming that "primitive" languages are too complicated to have
arisen by themselves.  When given an example of primitive languages that
obviously arose by themselves, you criticize it by pointing out that they
don't have complicated _terminology_.  But that's not what you meant
before--you meant that primitive languages had complicated _grammar_.

No, what I'm claiming is that the "primitive" languages that are in
existence today could not have arisen full-fledged as they are.  They've
changed very little in the past several centuries, even millenia.  They
may be irregular and complex, but they're also not limited by
terminology *or* flexibility.  It's difficult to communicate about an
automobile in one of these primitive languages, but it's not impossible.
In these "autogenerating" languages as described before, they *are*
limited by *both* terminology *and* flexibility.

So, again, every single natural language on the face of the earth is
completely adequate for discussing whatever subject you care to name.
They might not all make it equally easy, but it's still possible.
That's kind of a tall order to have happen through "evolution".

All of the languages in the
world today, and I do mean ALL of them, are equally capable of
communicating whatever thoughts and ideas you care to convey.  They are
all equally "old" as well, if you will.

Go ahead, tell me how to say "microprocessor" in any tribal language.

You can't, except by using a loanword or using a circumlocution such as
"that thing inside that big box", either of which languages newly invented
by infants could also do.

What if these languages invented by infants don't have words for
"inside"?  Or "shiny"?  My point is, these "autogenerating" languages
are "incomplete", as it were.  There are gaps through which you cannot
communicate, even by loanword or circumlocution.  That's what I meant.

Of course.  My point was that these highly complex languages are used by
very primitive peoples, like the American Indians, the aborigines in
Australia, and the natives of Africa.  Why do they need such complexity?
Answer:  they don't.  So why did it "evolve"?

Things don't evolve solely because they are "needed".

But that's what evolution claims!  Things "evolve" PRECISELY because
they are needed!!

The Bible runs into trouble with history and physical reality because it's
a religious book, not a historical chronicle or physics article.

It's a historical chronicle too.  Why do you think two of the books are
called I and II "Chronicles"?

Because someone said "let's put the word 'Chronicles' on the top".

That, and they're history texts.

But in "hell", you
die.  You are burned up and destroyed.  NOT tortured forever.  That's a
false, "orthodox" Christian dogma.

And of course I should take your word for this?  How am I supposed to tell
between false and true Christians, so I know which one to believe?

I can point out exactly where it says that the wicked "DIE" a "second
DEATH".  Not live forever in eternal torment.  But we should probably
move this off of the list if we're going to start discussing religion.

[healing story]

There's no explanation for it other than God.  ;)

Odd how God's healing is limited to cases where spontaneous remission
can happen, or where it's possible to imagine that things got better.  God
never, for instance, regrows lost arms.

Oh no?  Read the story of Jesus healing the man with the withered arm.

And BTW, spontanteous remission CANNOT happen for ulcers.  That's why I
went into detail about it.  These things just don't suddenly vanish.
They take weeks, sometimes even months, to heal.

Besides, what if it was magic cast by some trickster entity who does it
because he gets great fun out of watching people get the attribution wrong?

How would this trickster have known to cast the spell right then, when I
was alone in my apartment during spring break, right when I was praying
to God?  Hm?

Famous evolutionist quote, adopted by Star Wars:  "Never tell me the
odds."

Damon Casale, damoo@carmelnet.com
Spam, spam!  WONDERFUL spam!  ^_^