On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 pcorrig@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU wrote:

Yes, It's time for a knockdown dragout brawl.

To all:
   Richard Lawson's recent fanfic "Life's Ingredients" gave James "Zen" 
Bateman a very interesting cameo role. Zen's incarnation in the tale has 
had the good fortune to become very close to Ukyo Kuonji in lieu of the 
now (in the story) married Ranma Saotome; when Zen knew her they 
discussed (among other things, I'm sure!) the so-called "samurai ethic," 
the ethic of the knights of old Japan, or rather Zen's understanding of 
it. (For the record, Ukyo does not quite buy Zen's interpretation of the 
Japanese character, at least in Mr. Lawson's story.)

How many people want to listen to outsiders tell them about their own 
national character? :)

   In real life, Mr. Bateman is very much an admirer of Ukyo, believing 
her to be far more worthy of Ranma's affection than Akane (which is, by 
the way, emphatically _not_ the same as believing that she actually has, 
has had or will have it in the future). My understanding of Mr. Bateman's 
thoughts on Ukyo is that he indeed identifies the character with the 
ethics and value system of traditional Japan, especially that of the 
samurai, for which he holds much admiration.

I, on the other hand, do not.  This may of course, simply signify that I 
don't know anything...Japan is not my specialty :)
<More on this below>

   I, too, consider Ukyo, arguably the most conservative of all Ranma's 
suitors, to represent the traditional ethical system of the Japanese and 

I'd have to award that honor to Shampoo, who comes from a still 
traditional society.  It's traditions are different traditions, but I'd 
argue she holds to them (What little we know of them) better than Ukyou 
holds to the Samurai ethic or Japanese traditional values.

Shampoo follows a code of honor and revenge, in which deceit and trickery 
are acceptable weapons, though not the weapons of first choice.  
(Violence first, then trickery as needed.)  She remains tied to her 
society by language and blood, by her continued acceptance of Amazon law 
(what little we see of it), by her deference to her great-grandmother, 
her societal superior, and her continued displays of almost ritualized 
disgust towards Mousse, a social inferior (due to his inability to defeat 
her in combat).  

Shampoo does not abandon Amazon ways (As far as I can tell), and remains 
within a framework of obligations dictated by that society which govern 
her behavior.  She does improve her skills at speaking Japanese somewhat, 
but this primarily signifies that she's not an idiot and understands that 
if she doesn't speak Japanese, she's going to have trouble 
communicating beyond the circle of Cologne and Mousse.  Chinese remains the 
language spoken 'at home' so to speak.

While Shampoo may vary her tactics, and long delays the resumption of her 
quest to get rid of Akane physcially (Obstacles being for killing), 
her actions remain within the framework of those codoned by her own 
society.  

Now, Shampoo in DnR IS moving away from traditional behavior of her 
village, but then, many DNR chars are busy moving away from their 
traditional behavior patterns...

the samurai class in particular. What I have heard and read of that ethic 
and its frequent detrimental consequences for Japanese society, however, 

Gee, just like the detrimental effects that EVERY belief system ever 
invented have?

Could it be that perhaps like everyone else, the Japanese were not 
capable of inventing a perfect moral code or enforcing it if they could?

I haven't seen a single belief system that was ever actually enacted (I'm 
going to leave out lunatics and people who believe that Giant Wombats 
rule the world and the like out of this, confining myself to systems that 
people have tried to apply on at least a national scale) that didn't have 
bad consequences, that at least for a period of time, didn't outweigh the 
good.

(Just ask a nineteenth century Lancashire factory worker who watched the 
factory system destroy his way of life, take away his freedom, pollute 
his air, and force him into a crowded slum where he died by the droves of 
disease about the wonders of the free enterprise system and capitalism. )

to be judged guilty of writing off the Japanese nation as incapable of 
anything positive or good; such an assertion would be completely false 
and quite absurd. What I would assert is that she, like the Japanese 
people, has been in the past and still is capable of much that is evil, not 

Just like EVERYONE ELSE!  Amazing.  The Japanese are not pure angels, 
just like everyone else.  They've made mistakes.  Just like everyone 
else.  Nor are they exceptional in capacity for evil.

Perhaps when we've finished pulling the logs out of our own eyes, we'll 
be ready to lay judgement on an entire nation.

I would assert that EVERYONE, regardless of their ethical system, is 
capable of evil.  Everyone.  Your ethical system may incline you towards 
specific evils.

I don't believe the Japanese nation's ethical system makes them any more 
prone to evil behavior than any other nations.  Certainly, I can't think 
of a single nation on this planet that hasn't condoned various forms of 
evil behavior in this century...If I can draw on all of the past, I could 
pile up enough examples to write my own 10000 page book.

least because their ethical system has driven them to it. I cannot 
consider Ukyo to be completely, irredeemably evil. I rather hope (I was 
going to say pray) for her repentance, reform and redemption, much as I 
dearly hope that the Japanese themselves throw overboard those parts of 
their most deeply held beliefs (for I do not doubt they are just that) 
that have made them capable of aiding and abetting the crimes of their 
government and army, to accept that they have done wrong (which they 
have never really done, to be completely fair) and change their ways so that 

So?  How many nations ever apologize for anything they did unless they 
are forced with a gun stuck in their mouths?

Nor are the generation of modern Japanese identical with the people who 
put through the activities I assume you are talking about (World War II 
crimes, etc).  There comes a point where it becomes ridiculous to 
apologize for something you had nothing to do with.

they will never commit such acts again.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! And what model would you propose?  Every form of 
government known to man has committed evil deeds.  Anything beyond the 
hunter/gatherer stage anyway.  Certainly anything capable of governing a 
modern society.

The only way to prevent evil deeds would be to magically purify every 
human on earth of all potential for evil.  This is just a tad out of the 
reach of modern resources.

Certainly some forms of government are more vulnerable to abuse than 
others, but I'd like to note that the Japanese government is not very 
different in form from that of say, Britain, except for being more 
centralized on a French model (Britain has marginally more regional 
autonomy than France or Japan)

Now the structure of politics are different, but that partially derives from 
the fact 
of AMERICAN sponsored support of the crushing of all opposition to the 
Liberal Democratic Party after WWII.  The Socialists and Communists, who 
could have provided a basis for two party politics, were suppressed and 
destroyed with the aid and connivance of the American government and army.

However, the LDP seems to be giving way as the sole dominant force of 
Japanese politics...perhaps things will change.

Enough ranting about politics...back to our story.

   I do think, though, that it would take much to bing her to repentance. 
Even the destruction of their nation did not drive the Japanese to excise 
fom their souls what had led them to wage wars of conquest. It takes much 
suffering to bring men to repentance, often more than what their fellows 
can bear them to endure.  

Gee, I don't think our nation has exactly done penance for the fact that 
it's very existence is dependent on the bloody slaughter and forcible 
displacement of the entire population that was here before our ancestors 
decided to drop in and steal land they had no claim to.

Or does that not count as a war of conquest?  Were the American Indians 
more worthy of slaughter than say, the Chinese or the British?

Perhaps when we achieve moral perfection, we'll be ready to lay judgement 
on Japan.  I don't think we're there yet.

   The story that tells of Ukyo's redemption and just what brought her to 
it has never really been written. I can think of a non-lethal scenario where 

Maybe not to suit you...

she is led to abandon her suit--her father reining her in, for instance 
--but for her to do that would be quite consistent with her old values. 
She might make up with Ranma then; but we would have no guarantee that 
she would be incapable of the sins she committed before in the future. 

Amazing, that...How we never really have guarantees that ANYONE won't 
repeat past mistakes, no matter how loudly they repent or say they won't 
do it again.  It could, perhaps, reflect that we can't know the hearts 
and souls of people with perfect sight.

For Ranma (and us!) to really be capable of trusting Ukyo 

again, 

especially after volume 38, he and we will have to have some sign of her 
true repentance and reform. Only then, I suspect, can Ucchan and Ranchan 

Perhaps the first statement in this entire thing I agree with :)

   This is not to say that nobody has tried to restore Ukyo to grace 
after the last manga story. John Walter Biles has Ukyo (in DnR 19) 
brought to a moral crisis by Ranma's rejection of her and her ensuing 
isolation and misery, a burden so great that she is willing to let Ryoga 
destroy her as a penance for her hurting Akane (the act that caused Ranma 
to cast Ukyo from his sight). Afterwards by the second wedding (in DnR 1) 
she has developed the moral fortitude permit her friend to do what he will 
to be happy, that is, marry Akane (this time, she helps prevent Shampoo 
from disrupting the wedding), though it conflict with her own desires.

Good Summary.

   It was well done; but just how important happiness has ever been to 
Ukyo, if at all, is not clear. To not be Ranma's friend would bring her 

Ukyou constantly dreams of happiness with Ranma.  Whether he would be 
happy in her fantasy world is another story, but Ukyou doesn't seem to me 
to go around wanting that fantasy to come true JUST to satisfy her honor.

much pain; but so, I'm sure, did being forced or feeling forced to live 
as a boy for ten years. She hated it, resented the fact that she could 
never live the life of a normal woman, and blamed Ranma for it. If life 

She chose to live as a boy, in order to better get her revenge.
Not, she was forced.  Not anyone forced her.  She CHOSE it.  And lived 
with it.  

Quote (From Viz translation):
"You took our cart and ran.  You cast me aside just as you had Ranma's 
previous fiancee.  On that day, my life as a woman came to an end."  
<Dialogue of kids making fun of her>  "After that, only one thing 
mattered to me...Devoting my life to revenge!  Okonomiyaki became my 
life...I set up a portable griddle and cooked it by the raging sea."

No mention of any family pressure or even assistance in following this 
course.  No talk of duty.  She wanted to get even.  

Quote:
"Expect no mercy!  When you abandoned me...you made it impossible for me 
to ever again embrace my own femininity!...Since that dark day...I've 
sworn that I will never love another man!!"

Not my family forced me into it.  Not my honor.  Rather, she was left 
unable to emotionally deal with the rejection.  

as a boy made her that unhappy, how could she have stood for it? Possible 

She's a whacko, like everyone else in this series :)
 
She did it because she couldn't emotionally deal with the rejection (See 
above quote).  She went ever so slightly whacko.

answer: it was to fulfill her obligation to her honor and to her family-- 
and fulfilling obligations, far more than personal happiness, have long 
been the cornerstone of Japnese ethics, as I have been led to understand 
them. If she is so willing to endure pain and risk the positive hatred of 
those whose afffection she clearly values so as to fulfll her perceived 

Whose hatred is she risking?

The only people's whose opinion or affection we see any evidence of her 
valuing are her father and Ranma.  Also note that we have NO evidence 
that her father encouraged her to seek revenge, or that anyone else did, 
let alone forced her.  (That they made fun of her for being dumped, yes.  
That her father encouraged a quest for vengeance, no.  The training 
scene depicts her ALONE against the elements.  )


Now, the whole bomb tossing incident does risk Ranma's affections (not to 
mention his life), but I don't see this as putting DUTY ahead of 
Affection, but rather an effort to prevent her own unhappiness.  I could 
be wrong, but I don't think Ukyou goes around during that saying, "I'm 
sorry if this hurts you, Ranma, but it is my duty to my family to stop this."
Ukyou seems to interested in HERSELF and her own happiness in this scene, 
not some family duty.

I'm not aware of anywhere else where her pursuit of marriage with Ranma 
risks the affections of anyone she cares about. (ie, her dad and Ranma)

stories have Ukyo destroying herself. Traditionally that has been an 
honorable way, within the Japanese ethic, when the fulfillment of 
obligations has become impossible. Even in death she is unrepentant.

I find them implausible.  And she generally does it because she is 
Miserable in those stories, not because she failed alone.

If she wanted honor, she could just go back to revenge mode.

   Part of the problem is that precious few writers seem convinced of the 
need to redeem Ukyo, though more are now than before the end of the 
Japanese manga. (DnR 19 was written only after the end of the manga, long 
after DnR 1 where Ukyo is assumed either redeemed if she had not been 
virtuous from the start.) If they do not consider Ukyo to be Western in 
her thinking, putting her own happiness (and by implication, that of her 
friend/beloved Ranma) before family obligation and thus, in a pinch, 
forgetting her engagement and helping her friend to be happy by standing 
aside, they see her as an embodiment of an idealized _bushido_ on a 
higher ethical level than Western ethics. 

That's because Ukyou IS putting her own happiness first.  Ukyou doesn't 
fight by bushido, doesn't live by Bushido, and hopefull won't die by bushido.

Ukyou is as westernized as anyone else in Ranma 1/2, which means, 
somewhat, but not entirely.  The same applies to Japan.

I would argue that if Ukyou symbolizes Bushido, then so does Ranma, 
Akane, Kunou, and Ryouga.  At least.  Certainly they are not more 
westernized than her.

They all submit to parental authority, worry about honor, and are 
enmeshed in a web of obligations based on family considerations.

Ranma and Akane complain about those obligations, but that doesn't make 
them thoroughly westernized.  They STILL act on them, even BEFORE htey 
fall in love.

And it's the language of justification that they speak.

wrong. One may like a character--I like Ukyo very much, as well as Nabiki 
and Kodachi, whom I consider embodiments of Western ethics, but that's 
another story--but one cannot allow that to blind one to his flaws. On 

I'd agree on Nabiki.  Kodachi reflects nutcase ethics.

horrifying death by Ranma's hand. If all the Japanese who had abetted 
their government in their wars of conquest had been made to pay with 
their lives for the murder of innocents, the whole Japanese nation would 
have been committed to the land of the dead. There were some Americans 
calling for that in 1945; but there is a limit to how much enemy blood a 

Just like we'd all be dead if we paid for what we've done to the Indians...

   Before I go on I must strongly insist that all replies to the 
questions I am about to ask be sent to me by _private e-mail only_! We 
have enough excessive baggage on these lists as it is. 

Everything Below this point has been relegated to Private Email as per 
Mr. Corrigan's request.

Copies of my positions on all this available on request (As if anyone 
cares what I think :)


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, Ph.D Wannabe at U. Kansas         
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu      bailesu@komodo.hacks.arizona.edu  
http://www.hacks.arizona.edu/~bailesu/falcon.html 
http://www.dhp.com/~wraven/john/index.html

[Andrew becomes a slimy toad.  Karin acks and leaps back.  Terri and Hayao
blink.]

Hayao:  [thinking]  This has potential.

--The Eternal Game:  OAV #1.