Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:28:48 -0400
   From: jhedge@waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)

   Kun-chan wrote:

   >> [ Switzerland and Israel are rife with guns but not violent places.... ]

   >I guess it all just depends on who is able to own guns ... it seems that
   >in the US any sicko can own a gun, like there is no gun laws or no 
   >system to check people who own guns. 

   There *are* gun laws and a system.  But if you really want a gun they are
   very easy to get around.  Besides, the National Rifle Association is a very
   powerful lobby (read $$$ to Congressmen) in Congress, and in the past
   they've gotten pretty much what they want.

I wish!  You don't appear to have been closely following guns laws since 1968.

As for the gun laws, it's illegal for the mentally ill to buy (and in
most states, possess) guns, but the privacy of medical records
precludes effective enforcement of these laws.  And both the left and
the right for the most part want it that way.

   (example: someone tries to pass legislation against bullets that
   pierce police body armor (IMO, no real use for these bullets except
   to kill people); NRA starts yelling about how that infringes on
   someone's rights/ability to hunt (hunt *what* I ask?);

Remember those deer I was talking about?  Every deer rifle I've heard
about, seen, or used is quite capable of penetrating normal street
body armor; you have to get to SWAT level armor to stop centerfire
rifle bullets.

But that's irrelevant as far as our rights go, for they have
absolutely nothing to do with hunting, and everything to do with
liberty.  The bill that did get passed only bans sale of real military
style (metal armor piercing) rounds, and for that reason many NRA
members including myself were rather upset with the NRA (for the
principle; making bullets is trivially easy).

   NRA does behind-the-scenes arm twisting on Congressmen by
   threatening to not contribute to their campaign coffers next time
   around; legislation doesn't pass.)

NRA contributions are a drop in the bucket; by law a Political Action
Committee (the NRA's PAC is called the "Political Victory Fund") can
only donate $5000 per election cycle.  Federal legislative elections
costs $100s of thousands to millions of dollars.

The NRA's strength is neither sinister nor secretive, and is rather
simple: we have around 3 million members, and tens of millions more
"fellow travelers."  Remember the statistic that around half the
nation's households have guns?  The NRA and other gun organizations
are only most visible, politically active segement of the gun owning
population.

Most of us would just rather be left alone and focus on saftey
training, marksmanship (the NRA started up after the Civil War because
of the poor marksmanship on the Union side; urbanization was taking
it's toll even then), but that's obviously not an option.  (As a
matter of fact, the balance of power in the NRA was held by the target
shooters until 3-4 years ago.)

We're powereful because we vote.  Ask Tom Foley....

   >From the news here, it seems that shootings and massacers in America
   >are a daily occurance ... over here, the whole country knows if someone
   >shoots more than 5 people in one shooting. It's a really big deal
   >because there are so little shootings and even less massacers compared
   >to what we hear of the US, and other countries.

   You know the phrase 'sex sells'?  So does bad/sensational news. [...]

But not all; for instance, the two worse mass murders in the US (not
counting the governmental ones like Waco or Wounded Knee) were done by
arson, but you don't hear very much about them, perhaps in part
because the perpetrators were politically correct.

   And someone shooting "more than 5 people in one shooting" is a bit
   sensational over here too.  I really doubt Australian TV (or any place
   else's TV for that matter) be all that interested in news about something
   good/nice/happy happening in another country.

Indeed; pretty much any >5 people killed in one shooting would likely
be nationwide news, especially if the victims were civilians rather
than criminals killing each other.

   Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:03:41 +1000 (EST)
   From: Caroline Ann Seawright <kunoichi@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>

   > You're government's "Australia Card" efforts would not have me
   > sanguine over the prospect of being disarmed.  I doubt you're lacking
   > would be totalitarians Down Under....

   Haven't heard of that Card thing in *years*... They gave it up, I
   think.

But did they shut down the computer center as well?  And are you happy
betting the lifes of you and yours that those sort of would be
totalitarians have given up altogether?

   Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:01:59 +1000 (EST)
   From: Caroline Ann Seawright <kunoichi@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>

   [ The eeeevil NRA.... ]

   It all comes down to power hungry groups like the gun lobbies and the
   government... *shrug* And people who love money more than lives.

Power hungry?  As I said, we just want to be left alone, and our
legislative efforts are almost entirely defensive: exactly one major
pro-gun bill at the federal level has been passed in the last 30+
years.  (Most of the offensive action has been at the state level; 31
states now have "shall issue" concealed carry permit systems.)

   [...]

   Even in The Rock (saw it today), it had just some woman who was in the
   people captured, going on about 'Even *I* have a gun! If I'd have known,
   I'd have brought it along!' ... That just reinforced the 'everyone and 
   their dog have a gun' image that the US seems to give itself.

But it's true (although less so in urban (gun banning) areas).  I'll
repeat: *every* *other* *household* in the US has at least one gun.
There's at least one gun for every person in the US (household average
is > 2).

   [...]

   It's even rather shocking news if a guy with a gun turns up in school
   and threatens people (even without shooting) [...]  But all
   the news we hear from America is that this is 'normal' in America

Only in some urban school systems.  And a fair amount of weapons
carrying is for self-defense; these schools are jungles as it were.

In the high school I went to, in a town of 40K, guns outside of the
Rifle and Drill teams were unheard of, and weapons weren't used in the
infrequent fights.

   and that we need to stop what's happening, somehow, before we
   become like America, too... *shrug*

That would be a good idea; what you need to do is to:

Avoid out of wedlock children (has the best correlation with crime).

Don't let the educational establishment abandon their moral authority
and dedication to discipline, etc.  Don't let them teach self-esteem
rather than facts and the like.

   It's all the media, the entertainment business and the government's 
   fault... :p

If the government's policies discourage familiy creation and
maintainance, yes.  And if the entertainment industry preaches an
almost uniformally anti-family message, yes to that too.

Ob-Family-FanFic: Ok folks, we've had a lot of discussion about Ranma
having a baby; lets see some serious fanfics!

					- Harold