<Sigh> It seems like the last few times the ML has gotten spammy, some 
people aren't content to just say "The spam is getting out of hand again; 
please rein it in" -- they have to argue for a change or a split in the 
ML, when IMHO what's needed is a simple reminder to keep it within 
bounds. Some people including me, unfortunately; I can't see some of 
these arguments go by without trying again to get a point across, in 
hopes that we don't have to go through this all over again next time. 
(This is mostly aimed at the list in general, not Roehl in specific; I 
just ended up using his message as a starting point.)

From:        Roehl Sybing, RoehlS@gnn.com

Since no one's been kicked off the list just yet...

I rarely post, but I'm not too bothered by spam. I watch anime because it's
fun. I come here because it's fun. To me, spam is merely the off-topic
ramblings that ensue when any group of friends ( or supposed friends )
gather in a social setting. After all, it's not as if we're here to cure
cancer, solve world hunger, or plug the hole in the ozone layer. The second
this becomes a place where we all come, link up, and transmit fanfics and
C+C with no real sense of who the other person is, I'll tender my
unsubscription, because this place will have become a redundant variant of
raac. Some people just need to relax.

I agree with this in spirit. Unfortunately, some of the junk threads 
*can* spoil the fun for everyone else. At a minimum, I'd guess that while 
most people don't mind a couple of spam posts on a thread, they get tired 
when a few participants stretch it out long past the point where it 
amuses anyone but the participants. The point is not to kill off-topic 
posts, but to keep them within the bounds where most people are either 
amused or at least tolerant. 

I'm not usually so much as totally angered by the presence of spam (I only 
post when something like this comes up or my next issue is completed), but 
some people intentionally post subjects that are off-topic.  They write an 
apology for the spam but they really don't care if the damage is done (c'mon 
guys, be honest now).

In general, I'd agree, though the question of 'off-topic' can be vague 
sometimes. For example, Richard's recent post asking for test readers 
could be considered off-topic, since it's not about an anime fiction -- 
yet I doubt many people minded it. OTOH, the weather posts -- not to 
mention the S&M jokes one thread has degenerated into -- don't really 
have much to do with either anime or writing.

But, as the title says, this is the Fanfic Mailing List.  And the current 
content within the list is probably what scares some fanfic readers away.  

Roehl, here's where I really disagree with you. I wasn't around at the 
creation of this list, so I may be getting this wrong. But as I 
understand it, this list is NOT -- and NEVER WAS -- for 'fanfic readers' 
or fanfic distribution. That's what RAAC and the ML that mirrors it 
(can't remember the name) are for. I do remember seeing one 
recommendation for this list as a place to see new fanfics before they're 
posted to RAAC. And I'd imagine that some people signed up here for that 
during RAAC's hiatus. But that's not the real purpose of this list.

According to the FAQ:

* WHAT IS THE FANFIC MAILING LIST?

The fanfic mailing list (ML) is a forum for authors and fans to discuss 
fanfics (fanfiction stories) with an anime theme that are posted to the ML.

"...to *discuss* fanfics..." To me, anyway, that suggests a very broad 
mandate -- everything from writing techniques (How can I make this fanfic 
better?) to anime series (What would be a good series to write for? I 
just saw a fanfic based on this series I've never seen -- what's it 
about?) to anime characters (I'm thinking about using character X in my 
fic, how does he relate to character Y? Was character Z handled 'in 
character' compared to the original series? How was character Z handled 
in the original series?) to 'what I experienced in high school 
journalism' to Japanese customs to... ? Just about anything has the 
potential to come up when you're writing, and I think the ML discussion 
needs to respect that. And, as other people have said in this and prior 
threads, fanfic writing -- as with any writing -- is a creative effort. 
Creativity involves brainstorming, totally off-the-wall questions and 
ideas... and occasional digressions. As long as they don't stray too far 
away from fanfic writing for too long, I think they have a place on the 
ML; suppressing them would take a draconian effort that would turn this 
ML into something I wouldn't want to belong to. The problem is in keeping 
them within reasonable bounds.

In my mailbox, I get a few stories a day on average.  The spam count is about 
nine or ten times higher than that.  Yeah, some (emphasis on some) of it is 
fanfic related, but there are others I wouldn't want in my mailbox.  There 
is nothing I can do about the spam, because most of the time I don't press 
"Send" a whole lot.

I'm not sure exactly what you're bothered by, Roehl -- the fact that 
there are so few stories in comparison to the rest of the messages, or 
that some of the non-story messages are not fanfic related. 

If it's the first, then I'll say again that this isn't a fanfic *posting* 
list; it's a fanfic *discussion* list. I'd hope to see a good fanfic 
discussion list have at *least* four or five times as many messages as 
actual stories, and possibly even as high as the 'nine or ten times 
higher' figure you cite. To start with, I'd like to see every fanfic get 
at least four or five C&C's -- there we're already at four to five times 
as many messages as fanfics. Add in the messages that fit the guidelines 
above -- relating to stories in progress, and a little allowance for 
reasonable topic drift -- we could easily add another three to four times 
the number of stories posted, depending on how many fics are in progress 
vs. how many are sent out any given day.

If it's the second... determining a reasonable amount of 
non-fanfic-related messages is harder, not least because it's hard to 
define what 'non-fanfic-related' messages are. :) If you're using a 
'loose' definition of 'fanfic-related'... I'd take a wild leap and say 
that for myself, I'd classify a tolerable percentage at somewhere between 
1/4th and 1/8th non-fanfic-related messages. If you use a much tighter 
definition of 'fanfic related,' like 'messages tied to a specific 
fanfic,' then I'd set that percentage much higher -- at least half of the 
messages, to allow for brainstorming, discussion of series to inspire new 
story ideas, a few personal "I'm back" messages, and the like.

But I think people in this discussion are missing one word: compromise.  
Would it just be alright if the people here can find a happy medium between 
total spam and another version of RAAC?

Yes, exactly. This is what I've argued for every time this comes up -- 
enough fanfics and C&C to provide meat for the list, combined with enough 
'looseness' to foster creativity, brainstorming, and a 'homey' 
environment. A strictly maintained fanfic/C&C list is IMHO sterile in the 
worst academic sense, and doesn't inspire either creativity or loyalty... 
and when things get too far away from the 'heart' of fanfics/C&C, the 
digressions lose their meaning. 



Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
 tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
 <http://www.tfs.net/personal/tbutler/>;
 Mac page <http://www.tfs.net/business/tbutler/>)

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.