From: Scott Johnson, zagyg@IO.COM
there's a problem. Someone mentioned earlier that he didn't like the
idea of different lists because it would seem to create an 'inner circle'
and an 'unwashed masses,' but the thing is, an 'inner circle' already
exists - they're the people who spam prolifically, who post dozens of
messages each day, who basically dominate the mailing list.
I was the one who said that. What you say may be true... but this is
caused by the behavior of a few posters, not by the structure of the list
itself. This list has done a reasonable job of handling both fanfic
discussion and a reasonable amount of spam in the past, and I think it's
capable of doing so in the future. What is needed is restraint in
replying to spam threads (I've been tempted several times to reply to the
"Who is more honorable" thread, but refrained because it's gone beyond
its relation to fanfic writing). If that restraint fails, then it's
probably time for White Wolf or a designated moderator to step in and end
the thread.
(I should note that I'm not criticizing WW's handling of the list to
date; I don't know his time constraints or personal preferences, though
he seems to have enjoyed participating in limited "fun" spam in the past.
I'm also not trying to nominate myself as moderator -- quite apart from
the hubris involved, and my own time constraints, I doubt enough people
would listen to me. There certainly haven't been that many [or in fact
any] direct responses to my previous post. <wry g>)
I should probably state my biases in the matter. I am biased in favor of
heterogeneous discussion groups, with the spontaneity and serendipity --
and yes, even a little bit of the chaos -- of the best academic
environments. I am *strongly* biased against narrow, rigidly-defined
topicality, especially when it's strictly enforced. That IMHO brings out
the *worst* elements of academia -- narrow-mindedness, stuffiness,
pretentiousness, sterility, and eventually irrelevance. I've seen that
happen too often in the 12 years I've been online.
That's one of my bigger worries: if this list (or a new C&C list) is
restricted to fanfics and strict C&C only, a lot of the people with more
relaxed attitudes will leave, and the list will degenerate into authors
arguing about the One True Way to write fanfics, long after everyone else
has lost interest. Or the kind of pretentiousness that says "This is just
a piece of frivolous fluff, and not worthy of our attention."
After all, we're in this to have *fun*. It's good to care about your
writing, and to want to do the best work you can. But when people start
treating a fanfic like a doctoral thesis, then it's gone too far.
those of people who just like to write or comment on fanfics. Like it or
not, this list gives of a definite aura that implies that if you don't
want to spam, you're not really welcome here. It even tends to be more
exclusive than that, implying that if you're not a huge Ranma fan and
willing to get into interminable discussions on, say, whether or not
Shampoo should die, then you aren't fully part of the list.
As I said, though, that's the product of a few people getting out of
hand, and could be controlled with some restraint from the posters, or
reasonable moderation in the Fidonet sense. And as I said in my message
to Harold, character debates and series discussions here almost always
grow out of questions from a fanfic; therefore the number of Ranma
discussions is a function of the number of Ranma fanfics. The question of
why there are so many Ranma fanfics has been debated endlessly, and I
don't really want to re-start it. I'll just repeat the arguments I found
most convincing: "Ranma fanfics are easy and fun to write. Moreover,
Ranma is a very popular series -- not only are there more fans interested
in writing fanfics, but there are also more fans who can comment
knowledgably about the fanfics that are written... and it's hard to
comment or even enjoy a fanfic unless you're familiar with the series
it's based on."
I don't think cutting back on the number of Ranma fanfics is possible,
short of deliberate censorship; I think the same would be true on any
C&C-only list. And that leads to the worst kind of attitudes I talk about
above, that one kind of fanfic is "better" than another, that "we" are
somehow "better" because we are above all that, ad nauseam. But if you
want to reduce the *proportion* of Ranma fanfics, the thing to do IMHO is
evangalize the writing of other kinds of fanfic. If there aren't enough
fans of the series you're interested in to write fanfics for it, then
evangalize the series.
On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, James Bateman wrote:
The answer, though, cannot lie in the creation of separate lists. While
spam is annoying at times, it can also be very very useful. A couple of
Zen's current projects were inspired by spam. (Granted, they are sick
projects, but, well, there you are...) What might be spam to some can be a
valuable aid in thrashing out the parameters of a given character or
character set - this helps writers keep their characters IN character.
Spam can be used for brainstorming - refining an idea, or finding someone
who really is just crazy enough to write it.
And I don't propose to eliminate it - obviously, some people like it, and
find it quite enjoyable. But for some of us, it's more of an annoyance
than anything, and an annoyance that takes up a sizable portion of our
time. (This gets especially bad when part of a thread devolves into
spam, and another part remains C&C, and nobody bothers to change the
header - then even those of us prone to trashing all spam unread can't be
sure something's spam without reading it.)
Agreed. But as I said to Harold, I don't think a separate C&C list would
solve the problem; the problem is that topics that generate lots of spam
flow naturally out of fanfic writing discussion. The people proposing a
split seem to assume that a C&C ML will automatically eliminate spam. I
don't agree. The topics that generate spam will still be present, unless
C&C and fanfic discussion are put under draconian limitations (i.e. C&C
that talks about character behavior in fanfics can't refer to the
original series, since IIRC that was the start of the current Shampoo
thread... you get the point, I hope). In my 12 years online, I've seen
little to indicate that spam on one discussion group will normally
migrate to an alternate forum, even if it's specifically provided; and
I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Bottom line, is this. If the ML is split, then the writers still lose -
people will be less spontaneous in their C&C if they are afraid that they
will be accused of spamming - a lot of people will no longer bother with
C&C, or even the odd "Hey, this is really neat!" posts. And without the
fanfics to provie fuel for the fires, the social list seems like just a
slow version of IRC to Zen. In other words, pointless.
Of course, to some of us, the social posts seem pointless already, but
that's neither here nor there.
True. But perhaps we're also talking different definitions of "social
posts" or of spam. I'm not sure there is that good of a definition of
what I'm thinking of, beyond "it's what I'm pointing at." My ideal mix of
posts for this list would be:
* Fanfics (of course).
* Direct C&C on fanfics.
* Discussion of anime characters, as it expands or clarifies their use in
fanfics -- and probably a little beyond that, as long as it remains
"interesting" and doesn't degenerate into the kind of flamewar we're
seeing now.
* Discussion of anime series, again as that discussion expands or
clarifies those series' portrayal in fanfics -- and again, probably
somewhat beyond that, as long as it's interesting.
* Discussion of writing and writing techniques.
* Some spamficing -- as I said before, I think some of the best are
worthy of consideration as fanfics in their own right. And I do find the
good ones, like Robma's usually are, a nice light/surreal touch. As long
as it's kept within reasonable limits, I want to see it there.
* Some "true" social posts. I've come to care about the people on just
about every discussion group that's been worth staying in, and I like to
hear occasional "what's going on" items from people I care about.
Someone proposed a three-tier system that seems workable to me:
That was Harold Ancell, although it was a two-tier system: fanfics would
be sent to the C&C list, with follow-ups on everything set to the C&C
list; all items on the C&C list would also be echoed to the social list,
with follow-ups set back to the social list.
basically, we'd have fanfic-l, comment-l, and
social-l. Fanfics would be posted to fanfic-l, and replies would
automatically be directed to comment-l. Commentary and requests for help
could be sent to comment-l, and replies would automatically be set to
social-l. Of course, if you're replying to C&C with more C&C, it's
child's play to reset the reply to comment-l - but it would be a
conscious decision, to be done if you're sure it's not spam.
It wouldn't be terribly difficult, but it would be a conscious,
continuous annoyance, and one that I think would tend to discourage C&C
and other useful comments -- not just the spam.
This way,
people interested only in reading fanfics could just subscribe to
fanfic-l. Those who want to read and comment on fanfics would subscribe
to fanfic-l and comment-l. Those who want the list just as it is today
could subscribe to all three. And those who aren't particularly
interested in fanfiction, but who like the people around here and want to
chat with them, could just subscribe to social-l.
The problem is that this structure is at least as skewed against people
who want to participate in a mix of discussion as you say the current
situation is skewed against those who just want fanfics -- more so, in
fact, because this bias would be embedded in the structure of the list
itself, and not just the product of a few people's posting behavior.
Writing is a social excercise - if you take the social component out of it,
it certainly cannot thrive. (Where would Oscar Wilde have been without
*his* social set?)
But note that Wilde likely *chose* to associate with most of the members of
his social set. For anime fan-fiction writers on the Internet, it's not
so simple - either we have to try to fit into the cliques of fanfic-l,
with all their eccentricities, or we go without a forum for our writing.
And no offense, but there are a lot of aspects of the fanfic-l cliques
that others of us find dull at best, childish at worst (for instance, the
above-mentioned 'kill Shampoo' thread, to me at least, falls into this
category.)
Agreed on the Shampoo thread, and occasionally on the other threads. But
do you honestly believe that any discussion list -- let alone any fanfic
discussion list, since fanfics are based on anime series with their own
fandoms -- will be entirely free of cliques? I'll say it again, I'm
worried, even afraid, that a strictly regulated list will degenerate into
the worst aspects of academia... and IMHO that breeds more cliques and
more offensive cliques. I'd say the atmosphere here (certainly in its
better days, and probably even now) is more congenial and welcoming than
that would be.
C'mon, people. A little self discipline is all it really takes. Engage
brain before placing foot in mouth, and all will be well, if a little
noisy. The only true control is self control.
I think around here, habits are a bit too ingrained for that to work.
The prolific spammers are too used to replying to everything with a
supposedly witty comment or an off-topic long comment or what not. No
matter how much those of us who dislike the spam plead, it's unlikely
we'll get them to change their ways - and, as you've said above, they
tend to find their ramblings useful. I respect that - but could all of
you try to respect those of us who don't find them useful in the slightest?
I do try to respect those wishes, and I agree there is a problem with too
many casual and ill-considered replies. But I don't believe that a list
split would solve the problem on anything more than a temporary basis; it
doesn't do anything to address the underlying causes. And I think it
would damage the things I like about this list, and would have several
disadvantages of its own. If self-restraint doesn't carry the day, I
think moderation in the fidonet sense would be the best solution -- have
a moderator who keeps an eye on the list traffic, tells posters to end
threads when they stray too far away from topic and get too intrusive,
and if worst comes to worst, censure the offending party(s).
Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
<http://www.tfs.net/personal/tbutler/>;
Mac page <http://www.tfs.net/business/tbutler/>)
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.