On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, James Bateman wrote:

Okay... Zen will take a shot at this...

Zen thinks the ML is fine as it is... certainly there is a lot of spam just
now, but it is not hard to identify, and is easy to skip over.

The thing is, you're a prolific poster, a contributor to spam, etc., so 
it's only natural you wouldn't see much of a problem with this.  But for 
those of us who don't post as much, and don't like the spam as much, 
there's a problem.  Someone mentioned earlier that he didn't like the 
idea of different lists because it would seem to create an 'inner circle' 
and an 'unwashed masses,' but the thing is, an 'inner circle' already 
exists - they're the people who spam prolifically, who post dozens of 
messages each day, who basically dominate the mailing list.  Those of us 
who don't want to get caught up in hundred-message running gags tend to 
be somewhat dissuaded from posting - a reason why, for instance, your 
name, or Kun-chan's, or Geoff Walker's, or Wing's, or perhaps a 
dozen others, will be more well-recognized on this list than mine, or 
those of people who just like to write or comment on fanfics.  Like it or 
not, this list gives of a definite aura that implies that if you don't 
want to spam, you're not really welcome here.  It even tends to be more 
exclusive than that, implying that if you're not a huge Ranma fan and 
willing to get into interminable discussions on, say, whether or not 
Shampoo should die, then you aren't fully part of the list.

The answer, though, cannot lie in the creation of separate lists.  While
spam is annoying at times, it can also be very very useful.  A couple of
Zen's current projects were inspired by spam.  (Granted, they are sick
projects, but, well, there you are...)  What might be spam to some can be a
valuable aid in thrashing out the parameters of a given character or
character set - this helps writers keep their characters IN character.
Spam can be used for brainstorming - refining an idea, or finding someone
who really is just crazy enough to write it.

And I don't propose to eliminate it - obviously, some people like it, and 
find it quite enjoyable.  But for some of us, it's more of an annoyance 
than anything, and an annoyance that takes up a sizable portion of our 
time.  (This gets especially bad when part of a thread devolves into 
spam, and another part remains C&C, and nobody bothers to change the 
header - then even those of us prone to trashing all spam unread can't be 
sure something's spam without reading it.)  Eventually, one group or 
another is going to decide to do something about it, and we'll get 
segregation anyway - either the social participants around here are going 
to get their own list devoted to chatting, or those of us who don't like 
spam are going to get fed up with it and quietly create another 
fanfiction list that hopefully will have less noise and more signal.  
Because, frankly, I don't *want* endless discussions of whether Shampoo 
should die, or people involved in silly posturings with their .sig 
characters, clogging up my mailbox, and sooner or later, I'm pretty sure 
that if things go unchecked, I'm going to unsubscribe from here in 
disgust because the few fanfics and comments actually appearing on here 
aren't worth wading through the hundreds of posts of noise to get to.  
And, judging from recent events, a lot of people feel similarly.

Bottom line, is this.  If the ML is split, then the writers still lose -
people will be less spontaneous in their C&C if they are afraid that they
will be accused of spamming - a lot of people will no longer bother with
C&C, or even the odd "Hey, this is really neat!" posts.  And without the
fanfics to provie fuel for the fires, the social list seems like just a
slow version of IRC to Zen.  In other words, pointless.

Of course, to some of us, the social posts seem pointless already, but 
that's neither here nor there.  Someone proposed a three-tier system that 
seems workable to me: basically, we'd have fanfic-l, comment-l, and 
social-l.  Fanfics would be posted to fanfic-l, and replies would 
automatically be directed to comment-l.  Commentary and requests for help 
could be sent to comment-l, and replies would automatically be set to 
social-l.  Of course, if you're replying to C&C with more C&C, it's 
child's play to reset the reply to comment-l - but it would be a 
conscious decision, to be done if you're sure it's not spam.  This way, 
people interested only in reading fanfics could just subscribe to 
fanfic-l.  Those who want to read and comment on fanfics would subscribe 
to fanfic-l and comment-l.  Those who want the list just as it is today 
could subscribe to all three.  And those who aren't particularly 
interested in fanfiction, but who like the people around here and want to 
chat with them, could just subscribe to social-l.

Writing is a social excercise - if you take the social component out of it,
it certainly cannot thrive.  (Where would Oscar Wilde have been without
*his* social set?)

But note that Wilde likely *chose* to associate with most of the members of 
his social set.  For anime fan-fiction writers on the Internet, it's not 
so simple - either we have to try to fit into the cliques of fanfic-l, 
with all their eccentricities, or we go without a forum for our writing.  
And no offense, but there are a lot of aspects of the fanfic-l cliques 
that others of us find dull at best, childish at worst (for instance, the 
above-mentioned 'kill Shampoo' thread, to me at least, falls into this 
category.)

C'mon, people.  A little self discipline is all it really takes.  Engage
brain before placing foot in mouth, and all will be well, if a little
noisy.  The only true control is self control.

I think around here, habits are a bit too ingrained for that to work.  
The prolific spammers are too used to replying to everything with a 
supposedly witty comment or an off-topic long comment or what not.  No 
matter how much those of us who dislike the spam plead, it's unlikely 
we'll get them to change their ways - and, as you've said above, they 
tend to find their ramblings useful.  I respect that - but could all of 
you try to respect those of us who don't find them useful in the slightest?

--
Scott Johnson |
zagyg@io.com  |           This space intentionally left blank.