(Sorry for the delayed reply; I wanted to think about this when writing 
it, and there's been precious little time to do that the last couple of 
days. ^_^ )

From:        Harold Ancell, hga@access.digex.net

  From: Travis Butler <tbutler@tfs.net>

<Snipped: the proposal for a fanfic distribution-only list w/C&C 
privately to the author; we seem to pretty much agree you lose too much 
without group critiques.>

  I'd feel much the same way about splitting this ML into a "social" and a 
  "C&C" list. Even a group C&C list would be sterile if strictly defined, 
  IMHO; the best writer's groups I've seen have had a "looseness" and 
  richness of topic, because almost anything can come up in the course of 
  writing or discussing writing. (The WRITING echo on Fidonet is one of my 
  favorites, for this reason.)

While you have a very good point (note my previous comments about
brainstorming, etc.), the simple fact of the matter is that email
communications lack many of the constraints and feedback that real
time discussions have, especially the face to face variety.

<Snip>  

While I agree in principle, I think there are things that can serve as a 
replacement. More on this below.

While I'm not sure it's workable, I have an idea that goes something
like this:

Fanfics get dumped into C&C list, with a reply-to set to C&C list.

C&C list gets dumped into social list, with reply-to set to social
list.  Social list subscribers who want to do C&C will need to
remember to reset the To: header.

While some C&C will be lost to the C&C list, this is probably the only
way to avoid spam spilling over into the C&C list.

This is better than two completely separated lists, but I do have a few 
questions/issues:

* The C&C list seems to be envisioned as a self-contained list, with all 
items echoed out to the social list. But will there be a 
method/procedure/*something* in there (however vaguely defined) for 
moving spam that develops on the C&C list over to the social list? I 
wasn't here when this list was founded, but I'd imagine it was formed 
with much the same idea as your C&C list, and the spam seems to have 
grown up naturally out of that situation. Since the C&C list would be a 
self-contained and self-sufficient forum, I see the possibility for the 
C&C list developing the same spam issues as the current FFML. Off the top 
of my head, in the context of this proposal, there are only a couple of 
things I can think of to handle this if it does become a problem:

   * Moderation of the C&C list, with spam posts manually redirected to 
the social list;
   * Moving consistent spammers on the C&C list to the social list, and 
preventing them from re-subbing to the C&C list;
   * Setting the reply-to on all C&C list messages (not just the copies 
echoed to the social list) to the social list, so that any post to the 
C&C list would need to be a deliberate act. (Which would hurt the people 
who want to subscribe to just the C&C list.)

I'm guessing (*just* guessing! <g>) that you don't think this will be 
much of a problem, since the social ML will be available for spam; I'm 
just not confident that will be the case. I've been on many discussion 
groups where off-topic discussions cropped up and lingered, even with 
alternate forums explicitly defined, simply because the topic drifted and 
the participants didn't want the effort of moving it (or didn't belong to 
the alternate forum and didn't want to subscribe just for that 
discussion). 

* While the two-tier C&C/social list structure makes sense 
intellectually, I have to admit to an irrational problem with it; it 
feels like ghettoizing the social traffic and by extension the social ML 
subscribers. I know, this doesn't really make sense; that's why I called 
it 'irrational.' :) It just gives me the sense of an "inner circle" and a 
group of "unwashed masses" outside.

* Finally, it's going to be more of an annoyance for people who want to 
participate actively in both the C&C and the social aspects. You can 
subscribe to just the social list -- but that means the inconvenience of 
re-setting every C&C/fanfic related reply to the C&C list. (Hmmm, perhaps 
there's a rational basis for feeling ghettoized after all. ^_^) Or you 
can subscribe to both, for ease of replying, and get hit with two copies 
of every C&C list message. Either way, it's a hassle.

The issue is not eliminating message floods, but to limit them to
on-topic subjects, and reduce the total flood of messages, however
desirable they are to those with lots of time on their hands, so that
there is *a* list that focuses on the needs of *fanfic authors*.

Let me be blunt: the confounding of a social list and a C&C list, plus
the inevitable tendancy of some to post too much is killing this
list, at least for it's original purpose.  How many more good fanfic
authors can the list afford to lose?  Has it escaped people's notice
that by definition, time spent wading through spam cannot be spent on
C&C?  Don't you think the authors on this list deserve more
consideration?  The summer vacation is only highlighting the C&C dearth.

I can see that point, for the people who are *only* interested in fanfic 
writing. However, as I note above, your proposal actively inconveniences 
(I won't go so far as to say "discriminates against," though I'm tempted) 
people who want to participate in both aspects. And as one of those 
people, that bothers me.

As I also said above, I think a discussion forum suffers when its 
topicality is strictly enforced. While you note quite correctly that 
there is a there is a high volume of "spam" posts to wade through for 
people interested only in actual fanfics and C&C, I'd like to note that 
most of the "spam" here has developed naturally out of discussing fanfic 
*writing*. These are the major categories of "flood threads" that 
immediately come to mind:

* Discussion (sometimes heated) of how to write fanfics, i.e. "Author in 
fanfic," or the "Do you have to keep them in character, and what does 
that mean" discussion a week or two ago. This one's pretty obvious, and I 
think it should be on-topic for anything but the most strictly defined 
C&C list.

* Discussion of the original series that fanfics are based on. Again, for 
anything but a strict C&C list, this is going to happen to some degree; 
it's our source material, after all. Talking about the ending of Ranma, 
for example, is certainly relevant to fanfic writing when you're trying 
to decide how to handle it in a fanfic set after that ending.

* Character wars. Just about all the ones I can remember originally came 
out of discussing the characters' use in a particular fanfic. (Though 
having said this, I'm sure people are going to start flooding me with 
counterexamples. ^_^) And in the broader sense of characterization, 
that's a legitimate part of C&C if anything is. :)

* Personal chatter, "How're you doing?" and the like -- it's there, 
certainly, but relatively minor in comparision to the rest of the volume.

* Spamfics. Opinions vary on this, I know. I ususally regard the better 
ones as fanfics in their own right, especially after the individual posts 
have been collected into a single story, and thus they deserve a place on 
the list. And at the very least, they can be a useful writing exercise. 
In moderation, I think they can be part of a good fanfic writing list.

And that's the key to my point here -- *in moderation*. All of these 
topics, save the personal chatter, are (in their most general sense, if 
nothing else) part of fanfic writing. In moderation, they will reasonably 
be a part of all but the most rigidly defined fanfic writing list. Your 
ideal "fanfic authors" list will have to deal with them, the same as this 
one does, unless it *is* rigidly defined -- and you seem to agree that 
this would be a bad idea. 

The problem thus lies in how to deal with them, to make sure they are 
done "in moderation," and not in their mere existence... and I don't see 
that your proposal as presented is inherently better at dealing with them 
than the current situation. You seem to be making one of two assumptions: 
a) that spam will naturally migrate to the social ML, which I discuss 
above; or b) that simple membership in the C&C ML makes someone less 
likely to spam. I'm not sure either one of these can be justified.

Email forums are somewhat different than the face to face ones, and in
my decade and a half of observing and participating in them, I've
found there is no substitute for:

 Appropriate volume and focus for the purpose(s) of the list.

 Occasional ruthlessness in removing people incapable of observing the
 conventions of the list.

I've been online for twelve years myself, a little less than you. And 
while I agree with these in principle, we both seem to agree that the 
first item can be neither too rigidly defined nor too strictly enforced, 
lest the list die of stagnation. I've seen that happen in my time, more 
than I'd care to.

In that twelve years, the best discussion groups I've been in have been 
Fidonet groups -- both WRITING and the Fidonet SF echo. I think a lot of 
the difference may lie in the Fidonet style of moderation. Where Usenet 
moderation is passing all posts through some form of approval process 
before they appear on the group, Fidonet moderation is closer to the 
original usage in panels and face-to-face discussion groups: the 
moderator keeps an eye on discussion and directs people back if they 
stray too far off-topic. 

The Usenet moderator's authority lies in the ability to accept or reject 
posts that go to the group -- very powerful, but at best a brute force 
method of controlling discussion on a group. The Fidonet moderator's 
authority lies in moral suasion, backed up by the ultimate power to cut 
off the perpetrators' access -- less powerful in an absolute sense, but a 
subtler and IMHO more effective method of guiding discussion. 

I think something like moderation in the Fidonet sense would be a better 
solution than the split you propose. It directly addresses the underlying 
problem -- the tendency of list topics to stray far beyond reasonable 
limits -- whereas your proposed split does not unless you make one of the 
assumptions I describe above. And if it's done reasonably well, I think 
it'd be a lot less disruptive than either a split or moderation in the 
Usenet sense.

Bottom line: this list *will* change: 

That's certainly possible, but I don't see it as inevitable in the way 
you do. Things are bad right now... but the message tide ebbs and flows, 
and as long as it continues to crest and recede before enough people get 
irritated enough to do something about it, there's a good chance the list 
will stay as it is.

either it will finish evolving
into an essentially social list and much serious C&C will move
elsewhere, or it'll be split.  

Assuming that it does change, I don't see these as the only alternatives. 
WRITING and SF both went through bad periods like this, when their 
moderators moved or fell sick; but on the moderators' return, the groups 
quieted back down to a reasonable level. Is there any specific reason why 
you apparantly think this list is unsalvagable as a fanfic discussion 
forum?

And I submit to you that the moribund
status of r.a.a.c adds urgency to this issue.

I don't agree. r.a.a.c (and r.a.a.s before it) was only a channel for 
fanfic distribution, not a discussion forum. You can argue the need for 
an alternate distribution channel (and as I originally said to Don Wang, 
a list just for fanfic distribution isn't a bad idea, as long as you 
don't intend it to replace group discussion), but that shouldn't 
influence or force the issue on what to do with *this* list. After all, 
the FFML FAQ doesn't say that this is a place to get the latest fanfics, 
though some use it for that; the FAQ says "The fanfic mailing list (ML) 
is a forum for authors and fans to discuss fanfics (fanfiction stories) 
with an anime theme that are posted to the ML." Any thoughts on how it 
could fill the role of r.a.a.c should be a secondary concern at best.



Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
 tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
 <http://www.tfs.net/personal/tbutler/>;
 Mac page <http://www.tfs.net/business/tbutler/>)

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.