Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 01:11:12 -0600
   From: Travis Butler <tbutler@tfs.net>

   >From:        Don Wang, dwang@sprynet.com
   >
   >On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Harold Ancell <hga@access.digex.net> wrote:
   >
   > [ My proposal for a split into social and C&C lists. ]

   >[ Don's proposal for a simple redistribution list and replies
      straight to the author. ]

   ... Critiques can and often do benefit from shared or group 
   criticism ....

(Above severely cut.)  I agree; there's too much synergy lost if you
keep C&C isolated between reviewer and author.  However,

   I'd feel much the same way about splitting this ML into a "social" and a 
   "C&C" list. Even a group C&C list would be sterile if strictly defined, 
   IMHO; the best writer's groups I've seen have had a "looseness" and 
   richness of topic, because almost anything can come up in the course of 
   writing or discussing writing. (The WRITING echo on Fidonet is one of my 
   favorites, for this reason.)

While you have a very good point (note my previous comments about
brainstorming, etc.), the simple fact of the matter is that email
communications lack many of the constraints and feedback that real
time discussions have, especially the face to face variety.  When only
one person at a time can speak, and there are all sorts of non-verbal
cues (not to mention just plain shunning), people don't talk so much
to excess and pointlessness (or rather, in the case of "I agree"
messages, face to face does it lots better with grunts and nods).  

   And I think the social aspects/spam of this list would lose most of
   its interest without the fanfics and C&C to fuel it.

While I'm not sure it's workable, I have an idea that goes something
like this:

Fanfics get dumped into C&C list, with a reply-to set to C&C list.

C&C list gets dumped into social list, with reply-to set to social
list.  Social list subscribers who want to do C&C will need to
remember to reset the To: header.

While some C&C will be lost to the C&C list, this is probably the only
way to avoid spam spilling over into the C&C list.

   The ML has gotten out of hand with spam in the past, and will probably do 
   so again in the future. However, at least one of the two biggest flood 
   topics of the last couple of days -- the "Author in fanfic" thread -- is 
   not even spam, but is directly related to fanfic writing.

And occasinal flods would be no great problem (volume wise), if it
weren't for all the spam on the list as well.

   I don't think anything short of strict topic control will ever
   eliminate message floods, and that would sterilize the list as
   surely as an overabundance of spam would kill it.

The issue is not eliminating message floods, but to limit them to
on-topic subjects, and reduce the total flood of messages, however
desirable they are to those with lots of time on their hands, so that
there is *a* list that focuses on the needs of *fanfic authors*.

Let me be blunt: the confounding of a social list and a C&C list, plus
the inevitable tendancy of some to post too much is killing this
list, at least for it's original purpose.  How many more good fanfic
authors can the list afford to lose?  Has it escaped people's notice
that by definition, time spent wading through spam cannot be spent on
C&C?  Don't you think the authors on this list deserve more
consideration?  The summer vacation is only highlighting the C&C dearth.

Email forums are somewhat different than the face to face ones, and in
my decade and a half of observing and participating in them, I've
found there is no substitute for:

  Appropriate volume and focus for the purpose(s) of the list.

  Occasional ruthlessness in removing people incapable of observing the
  conventions of the list.

Bottom line: this list *will* change: either it will finish evolving
into an essentially social list and much serious C&C will move
elsewhere, or it'll be split.  And I submit to you that the moribund
status of r.a.a.c adds urgency to this issue.

					- Harold