Warning: this is long (although there is little included text), there's
nothing particularly new or interesting below, and I do get a bit
nasty towards the end.
And in case you're wondering where I'm coming from, as a "unpaid
volunteer" I both started and help run a student computer center, and
edited a high volume daily email digest back in 1980-1982 timeframe
(long before there were automatic tools for such (all praise Emacs!)).
When I got too busy to fullfil my obligations, I passed the torch
onto people who had time and energy to spare for them.
And the student "computer club" I belonged to (still belong to, but
inactive) is a service organization, providing informal consulting
and serious services; we hooked up the academic computers to the
greater net, still run the main campus usenet server, port the
acedemic computing environment plus our own bag of tools to new
platforms, etc. etc.
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 22:04:41 -0600
From: Travis Butler <tbutler@tfs.net>
>From: Bad Mr. Frosty, bmfrosty@cris.com
>
>At 01:41 AM 6/4/96 -0600, Travis Butler wrote:
>>>On further thought, maybe a way to get MegaZone to update the
>>>newsgroup on a more regular basis would be to challenge his position
>>>or capability. Maybe start a group like alt.anime.creative.fast
>>>and update it once a day. This action in itself will probabally
>>>piss him off to the point where we'll either see r.a.a.c updated
>>>daily or so, or he'll just stop altogether. I don't accually have
>>>any real plans set up for doing this since it is just a thought.
One more note: it should be obvious that Mr. Frosty's posting here is
musing, not a serious proposal; let me draw you attention to the words
"it is just a thought."
8 to 9/10 of your postings on this subject seem to be based on a
misperception that this is something more than frustration speaking in
an informal forum.
[...]
<Sigh> I'm sorry, but I'm afraid we have different definitions of
flaming. I define flames as personal attacks....
Unfortunately, your definition is not shared by Mr. Frosty, myself,
any of the computing subcultures I've belonged to, or The Free Online
Dictinoary of Computing (http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/), to wit:
flame
1. An electronic mail or Usenet news message intended to insult,
provoke or rebuke, or the act of sending such a message.
2. To speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively
uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude or with
hostility towards a particular person or group of people.
(This is essentially the Jargon File entry on flame, which I consider
to be canon.)
A personal attack is a personal attack.
A flame has to do more with style than with content.
Another response I'm combining with this one...
-----------------------------------------------
>From: Harold Ancell, hga@access.digex.net
[...]
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 01:41:25 -0600
> From: Travis Butler <tbutler@tfs.net>
> [...] There is a problem, I'd say, and something needs to be
> worked out to fix it -- but I don't think any of us have a
> right to flame Megazone without knowing the circumstances.
>The circumstances are utterly irrelevant.
>
>If you step up to a service responsibility that's big in scale (or
>very important), it's your responsibility to see that service is
>maintained in foreseeable situations, like vacations. You don't see
>newspapers shutting down when the editor in chief goes on vacation, do
>you?
True. We also pay a subscription fee to get the newspaper, and the
newspaper pays the managing editor a salary for his services. That gives
both us and the newspaper a certain right or claim on the editor's
services. Do we pay a subscription fee to r.a.a.c (in specific, not a
general Internet access fee)? Do we pay Megazone for maintaining r.a.a.c?
I am utterly sick and tired of the attitude that doing work as a
volunteer gives one leave to do a shody job. (Not entirely relevent,
but do we let doctor's engage in malpratice when they treat the
indigent for free?)
When one is being a "dog in the manger" (in this case refusing all
offers of help) this attitude is also not really to the point.
[ more going on about personal attacks ]
>I'll reiterate: Megazone has a straightforward and crystal clear set
>of rules for running raac; it would be simple in principle for him
>to find a few trustworthy people to cover the raac posting duties
>while he's unavailable, leaving offical integration into the archive
>for his return (a "New" directory would suffice in the meanwhile).
>
>He has had multiple offers of help, and apparently turned them all
>down; it's clear that timeliness of service is pretty low on his list
>of priorities, although going beyond that is supposition.
Exactly. *Supposition.* Not proof. I don't know his reasons for refusing
help, either [....]
And guess what? Form the viewpoint of getting raac running smoothly,
I could not care less what his reasons are (and short of a
"confrontation" I seriously doubt we'll find out, given that he is not
even telling people why he's refusing their offers of help).
Unless he thinks his position as informal publisher would bring him
legal liability for the actions of a co-moderator (a *highly* doubtful
proposition), I can't imagine any potentially reasonable basis for
refusing help.
[ more moot words about being reasonable and having an open mind, etc. ]
> [ My proposal for a petition. ]
And as long as the petition is politely done and not deliberately
provocative, I think this would be a good idea. But storming in waving an
accusation like a red flag....
And who is proposing to do this?
Are you familiar with the phrase "straw man" in the context of rhetoric?
I believe you are behaving much like a troll in this discussion. A
relatively mild variety, but time wasting nonetheless.
>From the same dictionary, although I don't believe this is in the
Jargon file (it's a relative new term):
troll
An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic)
communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly
controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a
message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with
a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some
people lose their minds.
(17 Oct 1994)
Only you can speak to your intention, but it seems to me your postings
are based on misperceptions of what Mr. Frosty and myself are saying,
from beginning to end.
[ More moot discussion about the definition of flaming. ]
Especially when many of us are guilty of the same failure to
deliver something we've promised in a timely fashion.
Two wrongs make a right? Not in my book. I also don't have much
sympathy for the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
concept; that's a recipe for anarchy, as we are currently experiencing
in many venues.
Anyway, it's high time to get to sleep instead of wasting any more
time on this tedious discussion. If Megazone's level of service does
not improve, come a month into the fall (to give the out of contact
writers a chance to experience it instead of merely hearing about it),
those of you who write stories have my encouragement to forward an (*of
course* polite) petition to Megazone.
To be on the safe side someone should grab a copy of the archive, and
be prepared to immediately assume the entire duty, but it would be
nice to see resolution of this (you know, this has been going on for a
*long* time, greater than a year).
- Harold