Hmm, second try at this; no idea why it bounced the first time...

***

Hiya,

Right.  Well, as you've pointed out, you're not necessarily interested in beating a dead horse further; fair enough, so I'll make this my final bit of C&C - and this time, I'll try and include some actual C&C (it'll follow my replies to your replies).  For what it's worth, really: being on the final chapter of a revised fourteen-part series, I can't realistically expect feedback to be of much impact, nor would I expect -- nor want! -- you to suddenly go back and change everything.  Hey, it's your story, and you obviously have every right to develop it the way you feel is proper; and it's obviously not a -bad- story, or I wouldn't have bothered to write feedback, especially to this length.  I, too, would much rather be writing my own laboriously slow fanfiction, as opposed to getting tangled up in pointless character debates.

Not easy to provide decent criticsm, though, since my original e-mail seems to have branched out somewhat; nor do I presume to be a writer of sufficient skill that anything I have to say on the art of writing should bear much weight.  <ahem>  Well, with that little bit of false modesty out of the way (I'm great, dammit, and gosh darn it, I know it!), let's try some C&C:

The idea was that she has had the entire basis for her self-confidence
ripped away. She is uncertain because she has had her life turned upside
down and inside out. She finds herself female, something she's been >taught to despise. That is an incredibly traumatic thing to go through. >I actually thought she was doing pretty well, considering.

Okay.  I can understand this, obviously.  This is what interested me in the fic in the first place: the original concept that suggested Ranma was actually born a girl in the first place.  So, yeah, obviously such a discovery would be - or could be - unbelievably traumatic.  I can only try to imagine how I might try and deal with such a situation.  So, being the base premise on which the story is built, I have to accept it as so.

From there, the story, being an 'Alternate-history' type, leads into a

number of further initial presumptions that are, unfortunately (and maybe only for me), far harder to accept.  Since this story deviates from the original source as late as volume ten or so, it has to work with the characters, and their characteristics as shown, in those previous chapters.  This is where I gradually began to have difficulty with 'Genma's Daughter'.  The story asks me to reinterprete the manga in a way that is extremely difficult for me -- not because I'm uncomfortable with the different characterization, or reluctant to see them act outside of their 'stock cardboard caricature' personalities (which may be true to much fanfiction, but is unfair, I feel, for the manga) -- but because I just don't find the support for it in the source material.  And interpretation of a text is acceptable, as long as it can be justified within the text itself; and looking at those first ten volumes of manga, it's very, very difficult for me to accept that Ranma is really all that unhappy, as a man, as an individual, as a martial artist.  As a martial artist?  Heck, the kid -loves- what he's doing, beyond the arrogance and abrasive personality.

But... this is character debate, really, and so probably rather pointless.  And, really, I -can- look beyond these basic premises for the story - hey, Mike Loader asked me to believe that Ranma could be a raving psychotic sociopath, and I did so with pleasure!  It's just that, with Genma's Daughter, it seemed that the story asked me, as it developped, to accept more and more things that were difficult to do so.

The poster scene was intended to show that she's a capable person who's >been holding herself back.

As for the poster scene (and I still don't think that Ranma would've had posters on his wall; the kid was so confident in himself it's hard to believe he'd look up at anyone as an idol figure), a suggestion: right now, there's an amazingly popular woman within the world of Judo tearing up the Japanese ranks.  Can't remember her name, but it shouldn't be hard to find.  She'd make a good poster.  And if AKane and Nabiki are purposefully avoiding giving Ranma any kind of martial arts female role models - well, that's interesting (and rather eerie), and ought to be explored within the narrative (in my opinion.)

I didn't mean her to come across as entirely wrapped up in finding her >man, either. She's pretty terrified about the idea, and I think she's >much more comfortable about her violin than about Ryouga. I thought she >was going into this relationship kicking and screaming. Yes, she likes >the idea of being a wife and mother in the abstract, but when faced >with the real commitment, she's very wary. I don't know why you think >she's wrapped up in finding her man.

Well, this maybe points at what, for me, might be a recurring minor weakness in the writing; it's asking me to believe things that are belied by character actions.  Oh, I'm -told- that Ranko is shocked at the idea of having a boyfriend, at the idea of being a mother, and terrified by the initial encounter with possibility; but what I -see- is quite the opposite.  She melts into her first kisses, she frequently muses about how nice it feels to be held - held *protectively*, which is very telling - and while she offers protests to the idea of getting married so quickly (hey, she -is- only sixteen!), she doesn't actually protest -marriage-.  Sixteen and already determined to get married and have children?

I have to say I'm kind of shocked that Ranko came across the way you
describe. I don't see her as a wimp or squealing at all. I think her
self-confidence was badly undermined, and it's taken her most of the >story to find a new way to be self-confident. She's also actively >rejecting who she used to be, because she resents it, and in some cases >is overreacting, and has to backtrack, to incorporate the good parts of >Ranma into her new self.

Unfortunately, it's hard to -not- see her as a simpering wimp.  I understand it's not what you intended, but... well, have you ever counted how many times she cries in a chapter?  No, seriously, it's worth doing.  Let's take a chapter at random: chapter six.  Hmm, less than I thought: only three (though one could argue four). Elsewhere he does so more often.  Accumulated over a dozen chapters, it creates a very strong mental impression of what kind of girl Ranko has become.

Also, since these crying spells are intersperced with many, many narrative glimpses of Ranko swallowing nervously, shaking, trembling, quivering, and basically living on the edge of falling apart at the slightest provocation - essentially, acting in a strangely stereotyped feminine way, which I know was not your intention.  Why I assign her frail ego to her femininity rather than to her undermined life, is that the prose assignes other 'feminine' characteristics to her, en masse.  This I haven't actually gone to count, but it certainly stands out: do you realize Ranko never laughs?  She only giggles, which, for whatever reason, certainly carries a feminine conotation to it.

As for backtracking and incorporating bits of Ranma back into himself... I'll touch on that later.

I think the comparison to "Thy Outward Part" is illuminating (by the >way, I agree that it's a better story). That story is about a male

Well, TOP is certainly a different type of story.  It's maybe among the best of the exploring-sexual-identity type fics; that being said, I still don't feel that type of story has been done adequately (argh, spelling!), and still hope to see it someday.

Ranma who is forced to be a girl, and finds a reason to stay that way. >This story is about a female Ranma who was forced to be a boy, and >doesn't particularly have a reason to stay that way. If you are >expecting a story about a male Ranma who is exploring what it's like to >be a girl, this is not that story. Ranko has never liked being a guy.

That may be some of it.  Maybe that's the type of story I was expecting, and not finding it, was left disappointed, or something.  That being said, I still feel my criticsms thus far are justified; I don't bear this story any ill-will, so the feeling of wrongness I felt while reading fed off of something....

I guess I believe that a girl like Ranko could *behave* like the canon >Ranma -- a jerk, egotistical, obsessed with winning, dismissive of >women -- while having totally different motivations than the canon >Ranma might have. I agree that the canon Ranma would not do what Ranko >does -- he would never become a girl again in the first place, given >the choice. He likes being a guy. Their motivations are entirely >different. If you don't believe a girl could act like Ranma because she >thought she was supposed to, then this story clearly won't work.

I may not believe it, but I can be _made_ to believe it.  I believed TOP Ranma could come to accept being female and marry a man (well, almost...)  I believed Ranma would stick by a psychotic Akane, and die because of that love, like he did in Bitter End; I could even accept Akane could become that wrathful (though I was a bit dubious of Ukyou...)  Developped properly, I can accept anything; I kind of have to, since I probably ask people to stretch their own credibility in my own fics.  With your fic: well, I don't feel I'm so much asked to believe a girl could act like Ranma (since she -was- raised that way, and really had no choice when Genma was around), but rather I'm being asked to believe that not only were all those characteristics false, but that they'd all just slide away within a chapter or two.  Which is much harder to accept.

Incidentally, you have an interesting, and rather different from me, interpretation of Ranma.  I'm not saying that's the only way you read him, but the emphasis does seem to be on the negative traits.  But where you seem to see rude and obnoxious (which is certainly there), I also see heroism, self-sacrifice, confidence, and a romantic spirit - traits which I -don't- see in Ranko.  The only characteristic they seem to share is a deep care for friends and family.

Which leads to a good point brought up by Nick: you write like a woman.  I don't see that as a sexist comment; I've read enough feminist theory insisting that there is a female sphere of literature that differs greatly from that of men.  Fine, though I don't fully accept that, but let's say you write in a femine style.  One could argue that the traits I drew out of Ranma above were 'masculine' traits, more desirable in a male-style story.  Maybe, but that goes to one of my main disappointments with 'Genma's Daughter.'

The opprotunity was there to do some very serious challenging of gender roles in general, and maybe of Japanese assumption specifically.  But these are mostly paved over, and Ranko becomes a sadly 'traditional' girl with remarkable speed.  Within a few chapters she giggles, she wears dresses, she loves shopping, learns makeup, and drops her masculine mode of speech.  Actually, it's the last that bothers me the most.  Why?  Yes, Ranma switched back and forth often enough in the manga, but I'm sure Takahashi was playing that up for comedic (or commentary) effect.  But on a day-to-day basis, I can't see Ranma easily overcoming a decade of intensely-ingrained masculine vocabulary.  More importantly, from a story point of view, it's a great opportunity to challenge and question these assumptions that a Japanese woman _should_ use 'watashi', as opposed to 'ore' - and so on...

And so, with those qualities that are maybe more 'shonen' as opposed to 'shojo' - why?  I'm not saying you believe woman can't be heroic, or stoic, or confident, nor that a man can't be sensitive nor caring - but it comes off a bit like that in the fic.  If it's not your intention, it may be something to look for within your prose.

(And before it's raised, yes, maybe I'm taking a male perspective on 'heroism', overlooking other type that might be more often attributed to a feminine literature - after all, I admit, what Ranko is going through would require remarkable personal heroism.  I'm aware of this, but these gendered arguments can twist upon themselves infinitely.  Personally, I'm tired of always having to put appostrophes around 'masculine' and feminine'.)

So, while I agree with Nich says, I don't necessarily think it quite justifies what I irks me with this story.  I'm not looking for action (something I rarely use in my own fics until recently), and I don't think
it has any place in this story.  (Although Scott's idea with Kumon was fantastic: forcing Ranko to face an image of her own lost masculinity could be excellent feed for some nicely intense introspection.)

The thing that is hardest for me to accept in what you say is your
characterization of Ranko as a wimp. She's shy, she's sensitive, but she
slowly gets her self-confidence back, and she's capable. I basically >see her as Ranma, but with very different emotional needs and very >different priorities than she had before.

Well, I already covered my opinion on that above, and I don't believe I see enough of a rebuilding of her confidence even by the later chapters.

She lets other people -- like Ryouga -- fight their own fights, rather >than egotistically thinking she should jump in and save the day. When I >wrote that scene between Ryouga and Kunou, my view of her thinking >was "Ryouga can handle this easily -- Kunou's a moron. Wait a minute -- >why isn't Ryouga doing anything?!" It was definitely *not* "I'm a girl, >I should sit around and let the men handle everything." If it came >across this way, I didn't express it well. I certainly don't hold that >view myself. I have no doubt that if she had thought Ryouga was in >serious danger she would have reacted a lot sooner.

See, whereas you don't have the doubt, I, as a reader, certainly due, owing largely to what the prose shows me at that moment, and also to what I've read leading up to that fight.  So when Ranma just stands by the sidelines, heart in throat, I'm disappointed, if not entirely surprised.  Mind you, that's easily fixable: if Ranko's holding back for the reasons you say above, why not letting the reader see some of that?

I am also a little amazed that you can see Ranko as such a worthless
individual. I think her family and friends see her as very worthwhile, >and so do I -- just in very different ways than Ranma was worthwhile. >The story was meant to be about Ranko letting go of being Ranma, but >discovering she was still a worthwhile person, just as worthwhile, but >in a different way. I guess you don't think she's worthwhile, and I am >not sure I understand why.  What I'm hearing is that she doesn't act >like Ranma, so she's not an interesting person.

No, no, no!  Worthless?  Certainly not.  Of course her family and friends think she's worthwhile, and as she develops, she comes to believe that herself.  Lets face it, most people reading this fic are more like Ranko that like Ranma, and I'm certainly not ready to dismiss myself as being worthless.

So, worthwhile, certainly, but sadly. . . not interesting.  And not because she's not acting like Ranma, though being bereft of many of the
qualities that -made- him interesting is part of the reason.  My criticsm here isn't a really a character-based one, but rather a writing/plot/drama based one.  I think I even touched on this earlier.

Part of what makes Ranma such a good character.  He's a jerk, but those rough edges are interesting.  It's why... I dunno, Jack Nicholson is likeable in 'As Good as It Gets', despite being an utter asshole.  But Ranko is just so... _nice_, that I'm not terribly interested in her.

More importantly than that, she's the main character - and while the reader is supposed to cheer for her, we also take more enjoyment out of her success if she's had an active role in them; but instead, every step she takes seems less catalysed by internal decisions than by outside help.  Without Akane, and Nodoka, and the Furinkan girls, and... everybody, really, she wouldn't have made it very far; and while that's very nice, and maybe even a bit real, it also undermines a lot of the character.  Ranko needs the help, but I, as a reader, need to see the final decision and ultimate effort originating from within Ranko, and I'm just not seeing enough of that.

You replied in a reply to someone else that you didn't see the need for stumbling blocks on the way to Ranko finding happiness.  Of course you do!  This isn't real life, it's fiction -- and fiction without obstacles is dull; it's why utopian fiction is such shit.  And, no, obstacles don't have to be physical challenges, or martial art fights; the best obstacles come from within, and we do have some of those, though in my opinion not developped enough; but psychological conflict can also come from without, and we don't have much of that from where it's most helpful.  Ranko's immediate circle is just so... so _nice_!  You say that none of them would have any reason for Ranko staying male - but that's one of the presumptions that's hard to swallow.  We get a glimpse of it from Nabiki, even, in chapter five (I think) - life's been dull since he left the house, and she misses the excitement -Ranma- brought to their lives, because Ranko certainly never will.

Most importantly, and this seems the most common weakness in Ranma-as-girl stories (whether forced to adapt, or born that way) what about poor, often-cheated Akane?  You placed your story early, which is good, because it's hard to deny feelings between the couple by the time the Hiryu Shoten Ha arc hits; but even before volume ten, there's more than enough evidence: love pills, Mousse's appearance, Bakusei Tenketsu, Golden Pair -- if not outright love, there's definitely more there than sisterly affection; and that's swept under the carpet by chapter two or three.  In fact, it seems a lot of Akane's personality is drained away: again, the rough, violent edges that make her interesting.  She could have been an excellent source of tension during Ranma's transition to Ranko.

I think I'm starting to ramble (actually, I think I've been rambling >for a while -- I shouldn't have done this at 1:30 AM). Maybe it would >be better if you could give examples of how you *expected* Ranko to >behave, as opposed to what you saw in the story.

No doubt I am as well; I can't believe how long it's taken me to write this thing.  How I would have expected Ranko to behave is difficult; the only way I'd know that for sure is if I would have tried to write the story for myself.  I would have expected lots of extremely deep and painful introspection, mainly made painful by her inability to let herself turn to others at first.  I wouldn't have expected her to change much at first - it's such a profound undercutting of everything she knows that I don't think he'd even be able to comprehend what it entails.  With pressure from his mother, and maybe a few others, maybe a reluctant look into what this could all mean.  Maybe - and this is really, really, tough - maybe eventually coming to accept what he was born as, and bringing back those memories, and yes, even coming to think of himself as a female.  At the same time - he'd still be a lot like the old Ranma.  His ego is -that- strong, I believe; and instead of being an arrogant guy, he'd be an arrogant girl, still gleefully kicking ass.  Maybe tempered, certainly wiser and older, but with that essential spark unchanged.  The violin thing I never would have thought of - it's a good idea, though, again, I just can't fathom him abandoning his martial arts to the degree he has.  Finding a balance, certainly, but not losing it; I would have expected him to even find solace in it during those initial terribly uncertain moments.  After all, it's Art - and without getting overly romantic about it, where you're _good_ at an art, to the degree Ranma obviously is, there's nothing more comforting than to lose yourself in it, especially, I imagine, one as physical as what Ranma does.  I'm shit at martial arts myself, but I've felt an inkling of what it feels like; I can only dream of the losing of self a skilled practisioner like Ranma must be capable of.  But - wow, that's way off topic.

It may just be that you and I have different world views. Not everyone >sees the world the same way, and there's nothing wrong with that. I >have to say that I didn't see many of the issues you raise in the story >as I wrote it, and I *certainly* did not intend it to come across that >way.

Of course.  And an author can't help but project their views into what they write.  Unfortunately, with fanfiction, we're already tampering with someone else's view, which means extra work is required to make it convincingly fit your own - and I don't feel Genma's Daughter quite made that step.  But enough of that, since that's useless criticsm.  What can I presumptuously offer that might be of some help?

First: Hey, no problems with the GPS thing.  Heck, J-Phone's just come out with a new keitai model that maps your travel and gives directions.  Very cool.

Crying: maybe tone it down a little?  Seriously, reading through enough chapters in series, it's impossible to not develop an annoying impression of Ranko; even Nabiki seems to, later in the story.  She cries... _a lot_.  Akane sweeps out her legs?  She cries.  Gets insulted?  She cries.  She's almost, if not worse, than anime-stykle Soun.

Japanese: why?  This is a common complain, I guess, but I really can't understand why it's used in English fanfiction.  Food and places, sure, but with a few other exceptions, it's seems pointless, just a pump in a sentence that can only jog a large number of readers.

Dramatic tension: this is probably really hard to change, since it underlies the entire story as you've written it, but the fic could use more.  By chapter three, maybe fve at the latest, I don't have a doubt as to how this story is going to end.  Heck, the girls at the beach are even nodding knowingly, they know how the story is going to end.  And when you have no doubt of the ending of a story less than a third of the way in, you need something else to keep the interest; maybe a fascinating main character can do it, but Ranko, even during recovery, just isn't strong enough (in my opinon) to be it.

Inter-character tension: too many people are just too nice.  Leave some abrasive edges, lets get some anger, let see someone draw the fire out of Ranko.  Other than a few two-dimensional Furinkan boys shouting insults (and, really, is there any really developped men in this story?), everybody just seems slightly pablumated.

And... well, I guess that's it.  By this point, I'd be surprised if any one is still reading; I'm surprised I'm still writing.  This is easily the longest piece of criticsm I've ever written (so long I probably won't ever review it; sorry for typos!).  I don't know if it's of any worth to you, but I hope you can draw something of it other than an insult - because it most certainly isn't intended as such.  I also kept it public because there's not enough of it on the FFML it seems - and any fic can benefit from discussion, no?  At the very least, it good advertisement, eh?

Lastly: why is it so often easy to write 'horse' instead of 'man'?  Some kind of obscure Vincent Seifert reference? <grin>

Later!

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