Subject: Re: [FFML] [Fanfic] The Next Cycle
From: Nicholas Leifker
Date: 10/27/1997, 2:52 AM
To: David Homerick
CC: fanfic@fanfic.com, sterman@sprynet.com

David Homerick wrote:

Okay, David.  

1. John's first claim that you cut out parts you didn't make comments on
was right on, in my opinion.  It's common courtesy.

2. John was, perhaps, a little too flippant in his response to your
C&C.  Then again, you were perhaps a little too flippant in your
response to Richard's work.  I suspect that in his eyes you were doing
nothing but make snide comments on the work, comments which don't help
the writer.  If you must give a negative C&C, do it professionally, and
don't make an ass of yourself.  

To show you, I've decided to C&C your C&C.  Unlike you, I've decided to
cut the irrelevant parts here.  

:From: Richard Lawson <sterman@sprynet.com>

:I have deliberately left off the series tag; I want to know how long it
:will take you to get it.  It's not Ranma, I'll tell you that much.  I'd
:be interested in knowing when exactly you figured out who "she" is.

All right, I'll tell you.

Fair enough.  

:
:The Next Cycle
:
:by Richard Lawson
:
:sterman@sprynet.com
:
:He makes a small sound of pleasure, between a sigh and a groan, and it
:fills her with such warmth, to know that he enjoys her touch as much as
:she enjoys his.

Um... yeah.  So.  They're in love.

Flippant - unless you've never known what it is to love someone, in
which case it's ignorant.

:She chuckles, because she knows he is trying to be cute.  He thinks he
:is quite funny, and sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn't.  She loves
:that about him, loves that he treats life in such a carefree manner,
:and tries to put humor in everything around him.

"I love it that you aren't as funny as you think you are."

Flippant, though I'm beginning to suspect the ignorance more... after
all, this is how lovers *act* during the romance stage of a
relationship.  



:He put humor in *her*; she was so serious and fearful before he came
:into her life.  Before he *became* her life, before he put life into
:her.  He notes that it has been eighteen months since they have been
:married, but she counts time differently; it has been thirty-five
:months since they met, thirty-five months since her life began.

Remember, girls, life begins when you meet your man.

The comment, while flippant, does make a nice point about possible
sexism. Clarify your opinion on the subject and state it professionally,
either in place of the flippancy or after the flippant comment.


:She cannot stand it anymore, and stops.  He stops with her, and they
:seem to melt into each other her lips on his, the feel of his body
:pressed to hers, it stills feels as wonderful as it did the first time.
: This kiss goes on and on, a reminder of passions past, a taste of
:passion yet to come.

I take it back.  They're not in love.  They're in Luuuuuvvv.

More flippancy.  And grow up, please.

:Finally he separates, smiling, sharing with her the private joke that
:the physical intimacies of their marriage always start with her, that
:she takes him and draws him in.  She acknowledges his observation by
:touching the tip of her nose to his and batting her eyes.

What, they're telepaths, now?

If you don't believe in telepathy in a relationship, then you've never
been in a relationship.  Trust me, it happens.  

:"I love you too."  Love seems too small a word for what she feels, but
:it will do until a better one comes along.

The sap riseth.

Slightly flippant, but it does make a point.  

:"It's been so wonderful.  Our marriage, I mean.  I want..."  He trails
:off, uncertain.
:
:And her stomach twists and her heart begins to hammer, because she
:*knows* what is coming next.  She wants to rewind the clock, to begin
:the last minute over and find a way to distract him and forestall the
:inevitable, but it is too late.  He is going to ask, and destroy her.

"So... honey... did you buy the milk?

"NOOO! <sob>  I forgot!  Please forgive me!  I'm an unworthy person
I'mnotworthyofyourlove...."

Flippant.


:"I mean... can't we... I... it's time."  He swallows.  "I know you keep
:saying not yet, that you're not ready.  But... there's no need to wait.
: Both of our jobs are going well, we have some money.  We can...
:there's this nice little house I've been looking at..."  He looks
:deeply into her eyes.  "Big enough to fill a family with."
:
:She looks down, not able to meet his gaze.  She can deny him nothing,
:she has denied him this for so long.  Here, in this park, by this lake,
:at this moment, her life has become heaven and hell all at once, it has
:been so all along but never more so than right now.

I take it this means she can't have kids.

Observation - and a correct one.  

:Her eyes begin to burn with unshed tears.  She fights them, for she
:will not spoil the moment more than she has to.  "Please, I..."  She
:can deny him nothing, she has to deny him this.  "Give... give me some
:time to... to think."

This entire scene is ludicrously overwrought.  Lay off the emotional
sledgehammer, okay?

Serious commentary (for once).   My response:

David, I pray you never know what it's like to think you'll never have
someone to love again, or never have children.  I do - every day of my
life.  Sometimes I look at a child, or the warm glow between two lovers'
eyes... and it hits me like a sledgehammer, that I will _never_ know
love like that, or the joy of raising a child.  

By cheapening such emotions, you have insulted me.  


:His disappointment hits her like a knife in her heart, she can feel it
:in the way he slumps his shoulders ever so slightly, retracts his hands
:a fraction of an inch.  He quickly resumes his normal, confident
:manner, but she knows the hurt is still there.  "Of course.  Take the
:time you need."  He kisses her cheek again, then turns and they begin
:walking again, hand in hand.

"Yeesh.  I ask my wife if she wants kids and she acts like I want her to
take a bullet for me."

Flippancy.  

:The doctor looks up at her finally.  "I have consulted with some of my
:colleagues on your case, and found to my surprise that they knew you
:already.  Surely what I am about to say is no surprise."

"You are a deeply neurotic woman.  I recommend counseling."

Possibly a commentary on Ikuko's characterization, though some
clarification beyond the flippant comment might be in order.  


:"No.  Surely this has been explained to you.  It's congenital, you
:see."

So?  "Congential" simply means she was born with it.

Okay, another serious commentary.  That's two out of... how many is
that?  

:She surges to her feet.  "Thank you, doctor."  She whirls and leaves
:the office before she can spend another second looking at the pitying
:expression on his face, the sympathy that kills her rather than
:comforts her.

Lady... get over yourself.

Gentleman (and I use the term loosely)... get over yourself.  This is
also flippant, and extremely confusing.  There may be some serious
statement you may wish to make to the author... but I can't tell.  


:Adoption.  Adoption is so easy.  It only takes years and years and
:hundreds of thousands of yen, but it does happen.  Of course, a family
:has to be deemed worthy.  It has to pass certain tests, withstand
:extreme scrutiny, be found *clean*...

"And they'll never find me clean!  I'm filthy and disgusting!  I cheated on
that math test in third grade!"

Again, here's another place where you had the opportunity to make a
good, serious comment, but chose to go for insulting instead.  Is
Richard being clear with the Burakumin bit?  That's an honest
question... but you cover it up with cheapening remarks.  

:It works until she gets outside.  The sunshine is too much, it hacks at
:her and she begins sobbing again.

I hate the sunshine.  It gets me down.
     -from _Joe Vs. the Volcano.

Huh?  

:A screech of brakes and the honking of a horn cause her to freeze in
:her tracks and look.  A car has stopped not more than a foot or two
:away.  The driver is shouting at her.  She looks at the woman, then
:looks to see the child sitting next to her in the passenger seat.  She
:cringes and runs off, runs and runs.  She comes to a bench somewhere,
:she doesn't know where, and she falls into it and cries.

"WAAAAAAHHH!"

Flippant.
 
:The doctor was right; she *did* know.  She'd known it from shortly
:after her first exam by a gynecologist.  And she had denied it,
:pretended it didn't exist, hadn't even told her parents.  The less she
:thought about it, the more it didn't exist.  She'd certainly had other
:problems to worry about.

Yeah?  Like what?

Almost flippancy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Does he need to tell?  Life happens, after all.

:She'd begun her quest then, hopping from doctor to doctor, each of them
:telling her the wrong thing, the answer that wasn't true.  For she knew
:that marriage was only an intermediary step, that beyond it lay another
:kind of relationship, one that started with two people and became more.
: And she couldn't marry him if it lead nowhere, she knew he'd wanted
:more, that his vision of the future included more than just her.

Not that she ASKED him or anything...

Flippant.

:But the time had come when he had asked her, had expressed an epic love
:for her, had told her that she was all to him, that wonderment lay in
:their future.  And that had been his gift, that words reached in and
:touched her, and while he stumbled sometimes over them, he found ways
:to slip them past her defenses and into her heart.  And she had found
:herself agreeing to marry him, despite her resolve, despite not telling
:him.

Silly girl.

(sigh) Flippant.


:For months, a year, it had been bliss, a happy dream, a perfect life.

"I've got my man!  <giggle>  What else do I need?"

Flippant, but with a comment on characterization.  My response:

I've known people who felt that way - who *feel* that way.  It happens. 
Deal with it.


:But the excuses were wearing thin, and she couldn't put it off any
:more.  Put him off any more.  He would find out, and then he wouldn't
:want her, and then her life would leave her.  So she mourned, mourned
:the end of happiness, of the lives going and the lives never to come.

You know, Richard, the more you try to pump up the story with overblown
prose like that, the more absurd and contemptible this woman seems in
comparison.

Okay, honest characterization comment.  Again, she strikes me as a very
realistic character, right down to the secrets.  

:"Please."  He leans forward to take her hand.  She takes a step back,
:bumping against a table in the living room, the tiny room that they
:took such pride in decorating when they first moved in.  He is puzzled
:and hurt, and looks at her strangely.

"Why are you acting like Sailor Moon?"

Flippant.

:She looks up, startled.  He knew?  "You knew?"

"And you didn't tell me?"

"Naah.  I thought I'd let you stew in your own juice for a while."

I am curious... what point were you trying to make?  


:He smiles gently.  "Before we were married, my father ran a check.  He
:confronted it with me the day before the wedding.  He thought that
:would put an end to things."  He shook his head.  "Father knew so
:little of how much I loved you.  I couldn't care less if some
:narrow-minded people - like my father - consider you 'unclean'.

Burakumin!  I get it now!

Okay.  Another legitamate problem!  Boyo doesn't realize about burakumin
until later!  Now... why didn't you state it PROFESSIONALLY before?


:It  means nothing to me.  You... you mean everything to me."
:
:She gapes, her emotions a whirl.  He had it wrong, he had gotten it
:wrong, that wasn't it at all, oh please...

No?  What, then?

Apparently you haven't been reading the story very well (or you were too
busy making the comments above).  After all, what's the secret she's
been angsting over for the entire story?  


:"Please don't feel bad that you didn't tell me," he goes on,
:misunderstanding her expression.  "I knew that you were probably scared
:to tell me at first because I might want to have nothing to do with
:you.  And then you didn't want to tell me because you thought I'd be
:upset that you withheld it from me."  He reaches out to her, not quite
:touching her, an invitation.  "It doesn't matter, love.  Only you
:matter, the person you are, the love we have.  Let's move beyond this.
: Our children will have no taint, I'll make sure of that."

Now we're getting weird.

Howso?  

:She stands up, takes a step, then falls to her knees again, the water
:soaking through her skirt.  She cannot do it.  It is wrong, and even if
:she knows all about committing sin, she can always hope to keep from
:committing more sin than necessary.  No more sins, sins are evil, she
:has already caused too much evil, she will not cause more.  If there is
:any lesson to be learned, it's that she must sin no more.

BZZZT!   These are explicitly Christian thoughts, and Christians are a tiny
minority in Japan.  If you want to establish that this character is
Christian, this is the wrong way to go about it.

Okay, more legitimate commentary.  This is Richard's call here; perhaps
he felt the thoughts IC.  

:It is a nice resolve.  She tries to hold onto it.  Perhaps it will
:become the basis for her new life, the life that will no longer have
:him in it.

She's STILL being silly.

And you're STILL being flippant.  Don't you see how these negative
comments turn your commentary off from the writer, rendering it
useless?  After all, if you show nothing but contempt for his ideas, why
should he show anything but contempt for yours?  

This is different from negative C&C.  Negative C&C means saying "This is
wrong.  Here's why."  Negative C&C is not insulting.  This is a
trashing.  

:And then a strange kind of peace settles over her.  There is something,
:a presence, that enters her and speaks soothing words.  "Be at ease,
:dear.  Oh my, you feel so strongly and deeply.  Such love in your soul,
:causing you such pain.  It should not be so."

I hope this isn't going where I thing it's going.

Random comment.

:The presence sends silvery laughter along her mind, tinged with
:sadness.  "Thank you, dear, for your consideration.  You are kind.  And
:wise and strong.

I beg to differ.

Flippant comment, as you've already made your comments about Ikuko's
characterization.  

:"To bear my daughter."

Well, this does explain where Sailor Moon gets her sappy stupidity.

Flippant comment.

:"To have my child.  The evil that destroyed my kingdom and nearly
:devoured the world is rising again.  It is time to bring for the
:Warriors once again.  Most importantly, my daughter must live again to
:lead them and save the world and bring it once more to paradise.  But
:it must all begin with you."

"Blessed art thou among women.  Thou shalt bring forth a daughter, and thou
shalt call her name Usagi.  And she shall be whiny and insipid, and she
shall someday rule the world.  HAHAHAHAHA!  Ooops..."

Okay, this is a flippant comment, but it also contains some serious
commentary.  After all, this does have some parallels to Mary's
visitation by Gabriel in the bible.  

However, does an author want to waste his time by trying to cut through
the insults to get to the serious comments?  In other words, your
insults have rendered anything serious you may have to say about the
work useless.

:She thinks that perhaps the presence has found the wrong person, and
:her nascent hope begins to fade.  "I, know nothing of battles or
:fighting.  I... I'm not sure I could teach her those things."

"Hell, I don't even have the courage to tell my husband I'm barren."

More flippancy.  

:The presence laughs again, and this time it is tinged with affection.
: "It is not the tactics of war she needs to learn.  Others will guide
:her in that respect.  No she must overcome her obstacles the same way
:you overcame yours:  with love."

"Point?  Hello?  I've just run *away* from my problems."

Still a little flippant, but contains a serious comment.  My response:

You weren't reading - you were too busy insulting.  Ikuko decided to
live, and to tell her husband everything.  She just *knew*, however,
that he'd leave her because of it.  That isn't running away from her
problems - it's going back to them.


:"Dear, you must understand."  The voice is more serious now.  "My -
:*our* - daughter will be in danger when she comes into her power.  She
:will constantly be under attack, and will know few moments of peace.
: While I want you to be there to give support, guidance, and love, you
:must not interfere.  You must not do anything to keep her from her
:finding and fulfilling her destiny.  It may squeeze your heart to see
:her in danger of her life.  But, if what I have seen here is any
:indication, it will not *break* your heart.  You must show the strength
:you showed tonight during the times to come, and let our daughter do
:what needs to be done."

"Yeah.  Yeah, I showed *strength* tonight.  Yeah, that's it."

More flippancy.

And yes, she did.  

:The presence fills her strongly, and its words resonate throughout her.
: "Can you accept this?"
:
:She wants to blurt out the answer but pauses for a moment.  What the
:voice says sounds like it would be difficult.  Maybe even hellish.  She
:tries to imagine a daughter charging into battle, and her mind cringes
:at the thought.

She was used to that, however, as her mind cringed at every thought.

More flippancy; however, is he repeating those words?  

:But any child might die, there was a risk inherent in bringing life
:into the world.  And the voice has said that her potential daughter
:must be taught love, how to love and how to share love, in order to win
:the wars to come.

I've heard of the phrase, "make love, not war,"  but...  "make war with
love?"

This is much of what happens in SMoon.  


:"Do not downplay your own gifts, dear.  Love does not flow just from
:one person, but feeds in a loop and grow with each iteration.  Your
:heart is just as capable of love, and equally able to share it.  I have
:no doubt that our daughter could find no better family to be a part
:of."

"Mental note: tell cat where I left Moon Princess."

Not flippant, but a bit of humor.  

:"It is done."  The voice sounds tired now, and begins to grow distant.
: "You will now conceive our daughter.  Although you will still need
:your husband's help first."  The voice chuckles slightly, but it is
:fading fast and quickly moves on.  "After our daughter is born, you may
:choose to have other children.  They will be wholly yours.  They will
:be my thanks for the services you have chosen to perform for me."

"I'll let you keep them."

If you're trying at a MSTing, it's far too late.  You've turned off your
audience.  

And yes, I am showing some flippancy here.  After having to read yours,
I can't help it.  

:And she does, for the first she really does.  She thinks that if she
:had told this man her secret, he would have stayed with her.  For the
:first time, she really trusts his love in a way she never allowed
:herself to do before.  And, amazingly her love for him grows, which she
:had not thought possible.

Fanfic writers, remember this:  If your main characters are in love, you
must constantly remind your readers of this fact.  Otherwise, they will
forget.

Serious comment.  My response:

Aw, let him have it.  Jeez... it's not like Ikuko and Kenji would hate
each other after sixteen years of marriage...

:She shakes her head.  "But she'll be late, and she won't eat well, and
:she'll be yelled at by her teacher again."

So go drag her out of bed.  Yeesh.

Flippant.

If you'd seen Sailor Moon, you would have realized she tried - several
times.  

:Kenji looks back at her.  "Don't feel like you're a poor mother because
:she acts irresponsibly at times.  It's something teenagers do.  It's
:not her fault, or yours.  She'll grow out of it eventually."

"It's just a stage she's going through."

Flippant.

:There is a scream from upstairs.  Shingo grins and gets up from the
:chair, ready to go to school.  He glances at the paper Kenji has been
:reading, and his face gets excited.  "Hey look!  Sailor Moon was in a
:fight last night.  Cool!"

"She made a drippy speech, and she fell on her butt.  Then Sailor Mars
whacked her upside the head and called her a moron.  Kinda like Sis and her
friends, huh?"

Flippant.  Do you know how tired I am of typing those words?  


:She tries not to wince.  She follows Sailor Moon's exploits much more
:closely than her son and husband will ever know.

She does so secretly, because she is ashamed.

Flippant.

:She glances at the newspaper.  She can't stand it, and runs to the
:still-open front door.  "Usagi!" she calls out.  "Be careful."

"WATCH OUT FOR THE... oooh, that's gotta hurt."

Flippant.

:"Thank you," a voice she hasn't heard in fifteen years says to her.
: "She is all that I could have hoped for.

"You did the best you could with the material I gave you."

This actually got a mild chuckle out fo me.  Thanks.  After the weak
attempts at jokes I've read from you over the past thirty minutes, I'd
find anything funny.

:She will surely win because
:of the strong love you and your husband gave her.  My undying thanks.
: And love."
:
:She smiles, letting the voice know that the gratitude and love are
:reciprocated.

The secret to a popular fanfic is to use the word "love" as many times as is
humanly possible.

Hokay... what comment are you trying to make here?


:Then she goes inside to begin the cycle anew.

"And what drippy twit, her hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

Hokay... this left vapor trails...

-- David.

My response:  Yes, there are a couple of serious responses in there. 
But... given that the insulting/flippant/made in ignorance comments far
outnumbered them, I think John's response is more than justified.  This
isn't a negative C&C; this is a trashfest.  If you want to give a good
negative C&C, say what you mean professionally, without the insults.  

-- Nick