Subject: RE: [FFML] [Ranma] [TOP/TIL] Definitions of Hell
From: Sebastian Weinberg
Date: 10/22/1997, 9:06 AM
To: fanfic@fanfic.com

In message <01BCDE7E.588E5620.sterman@sprynet.com> Richard Lawson wrote:

: On Tuesday, October 21, 1997 7:45 AM, Sebastian Weinberg wrote:
: 
: > : The cross-over that should *never* have been written...
: >
: > Oh yeah, *great* advertising copy if I ever saw it.  Nothing to
: > get the audience in the mood than to imply there's something
: > *wrong* with what they're going to read.
: 
: More of an acknowledgement that this is an exercise in ego more than 
: anything else.  It takes chutzpah to crossover two of your own stories. 
:  :)

Not more than it takes to write a sequel or side stories.  Just
because both series are yours, doesn't make it more bold or
naughty to cross them over.


: > : The creature, whatever it was, sank into a pool of its
: > : own blood.
: >
: > You really need to get more creative with your monsters.  The last
: > three ones all were completely undefined, two of them even
: > formless.
: 
: Hmm.  Well, the "boogie-man" (to use Taleswapper's designation) was 
: deliberately formless.  And here, the monster is really not necessary 
: to the story; more a plot device than anything else.  (I do have an 
: image in mind, a mix between the creatures from "Alien" and 
: "Predator".)

It is not really important to the story, but it is important to
*Ranma*.  He just fought life-or-death with that thing and would
have a quite vivid picture of its looks.  That should be expressed
in the text - glossing it over diminishes the percieved impact
this fight had on Ranma.


: All this is to excuse the fact that I'm horrible at describing things. 
:  :)

You don't have to describe it in detail - just give the impression
that there *is* something to describe.  Talk of glistening fangs
or too many arms or spikes or chitinous carapace or whatever.  You
don't have to paint us a picture, but you *should* show some
colours.


: > : "What!"  Akane's anger flared up.  "I didn't!  I mean,
: > : yes, we both broke off the engagement a dozen times, but
: > : in the end..."
: >
: > Twice.  Once over Shampoo, before it became apparent that Ranma
: > was not two-timing her, and once when his engagement was
: > transferred to Nabiki.
: 
: Twice that we *saw*.  A dozen other times that weren't chronicled in 
: the manga.  So there.  :P

Just like the hundreds of times that Ukyou has been there for
Ranma to cry his heart out and help him with personal problems and
stuff, eh?  Oh, wait, that's Zen's delusion, not yours.  :)


: > : is a different world altogether.  An alternate universe."
: >
: > I don't like that word; I always use "alternative".  It's just not
: > what "alternate" *means*.  Which is not to say that Ranma should
: > not use it here.  :)
: 
: al�ter�nate (�l�ter-n�t�, �l�-)
: 1. To occur in successive turns: showers alternating with sunshine.
: 2. To pass back and forth from one state, action, or place to another:
: 
: The second seems to apply here.  :)

Nope.  "To alternate" means going back and forth repeatedly and
steadily for a given amount of time, not just there and back again
once.


: > : Ranma shrugged.  "So, *you* tell me what Autumn's Shaver
: > : has to say."
: >
: > Still think this should be "Occam's".  This took me three readings
: > to get, the first time.  Ranma's not *dumb*.  Let him get the name
: > right, but the "Razor" wrong.
: 
: No, Ranma's not dumb.  But Ranma's not heard the name "Occam" before, 
: and thought Kentaro was saying "Autumn"  (and yes, I know this wouldn't 
: happen if they were speaking Japanese).

Never mind that; I can't see it happening in English.  Apart from
that, if you admit that Ranma isn't dumb, that's another reason
for him not to get *all* of it wrong.  Trust me, "Occam's shaver"
is just as funny without looking as forced or cryptic.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of Japanese/English stuff, how
about this for the "powerful" scene:

"Hai. Powerful."

"Oh yeah?  Just *how* high powerful do you mean?"

;)


: A story:  when I was in high school, a popular song used the phrase 
: "Kyrie eleison" in its lyrics:
: 
: Kyrie eleison down the road that I must travel;
: Kyrie eleison through the highway of the night...
: 
: It wasn't until someone told me that I figured out the "kyrie eleison" 
: part.  I was convinced the lyric was, "Carry a laser".  Which pretty 
: much changes the entire meaning of the song.  :)

:D :D :D  Oh man, I know I did thing like that, but fortunately I
suppressed all the embarrassing memories.  :)


: > : "How long do you think I was stuck as a woman?"
: >
: > Still think she pulls this one out of thin air.  Why does she ask
: > this question?
: 
: Why?  Well, I think it's pretty clear:
: 
: TILkane tells TOPma they were married before their senior year in high 
: school.  Now, TOPma knows that didn't happen, because she was stuck as 
: a woman during that time, and TILkane couldn't marry a woman.  So she 
: asks what her gender was when they were married.  When TILkane 
: indicates that he was male, TOPma immediately asks about the Herb 
: incident - the incident that ended with TOPma stuck as a woman for six 
: years.  This is a major event in TOPma's life.  It is much less so in 
: TILma's life, which is why TILkane goes "Who?"

Hmmm, yeah, sounds okay, once you explained it, but this wasn't
clear to me from the text.  I'll go over that passage again and
look why this didn't click with me.


: > Ah, expanding upon the dream contact.  Good.  I like this scene,
: > too.  And what a relief that the Kentaro-Akane thing was just
: > this.  <Phew!>  :)
: 
: Hehehe... you didn't think I'd do that in real life, neh?  :)

Stranger things have happened.  :)


: > : The steps paused a moment, then moved towards him.
: > : Nabiki was looking at him thoughtfully.  "Do you have
: > : mental telepathy where you come from or just super-keen
: > : senses?"
: >
: > "Mental telepathy"?  I don't think Nabiki would use anything this
: > redundant, which is doubtful because it is too repetitive for her,
: > making it OOC. :)
: 
: It's a common phrase, despite the redundancy.

Never heard it before, so the redundancy looked kinda blatant to
me.  Don't mind me, you're the native speaker here.  :)


: > : "Oh, I like him just fine.  You and he get along
: > : famously.  He's just a little too saintly for my tastes."
: >
: > Yaaayy!  You made Nabiki the greek chorus!  Way cool!
: 
: :D  That's her usual role in my fanfics.

Nah, mostly she's the advocatus diaboli.  :)


: > : "Well, I hope to find what it is in my dreams that is
: > : bothering me.  If it's me - that is, the Ranma you know -
: > : then I want you here to help call him back.  And, just
: > : maybe, I can cross over there as well."
: >
: > Still too contrived for my tastes.  I just don't like it that she
: > is already talking of crossing over.  It's far too fantastic a
: > notion for her to have just like that.
: 
: I dunno.  She desperately *wants* to exchange places back with TILma, 
: so while this meditation technique isn't supposed to allow any kind of 
: exchange, it's what she *hopes* for with all of her heart.  She 
: acknowledges this with her "improvising" comment.

That's rationalizing.  TOPma is too sensible to let her wishes
colour her thinking *this* obviously.  She would be hoping for a
way to cross over, but not that the meditation would prove to *be*
that way already.  Just let her talk about finding a way to do it,
instead of doing it right away.


: > : AUTHOR'S NOTE:
: > :
: > : Well, whaddya think?
: >
: > Still not enough.
: 
: Dang.  The thing is forty pages long and you're *still* not satisfied? 
:  ^_^

Nope.  There is so much to this premise that you'll have to
explore it an awful lot deeper before I'm satisfied - otherwise
you'd be wasting it.  This is not meant to be a short fic - it
demands more.


: > The changes made the solution a bit better, but I still think it's
: > arrived at too conveniently by blind luck with too little
: > searching and false starts.
: 
: Well, this I disagree with.  Except maybe for the "too little false 
: starts", which I admit I cut down on for the sake of expediency.

Richard, you *know* that letting the heroes win on the first
attempt makes for a poor story.


: > TILma's second trip to Australia should he a bit more reason
: > than this.
: 
: This I agree was glossed over.  Again, I didn't want to drag the story 
: out any longer than it had to.

Unfortunately that made it shorter than it needs to be.  Let Ranma
and the shaman discuss or even try other means of crossing
universes.  Go wild!  Let them try to open magical wormholes,
summon spirits, *whatever*.  And when everything fails, they can
try meditating to get at least some *contact*, without actually
hoping that this will prove to be the means of crossing.


: > I think the story would gain a lot if the
: > solution is arrived at after a bit more struggle.
: 
: Perhaps.  Is it worth adding another twenty or more pages?  I thought 
: it was long enough as it was.  This was supposed to be a cute little 
: exercise (remember, it started as an hour-long fic) rather than an epic 
: cross-over.

Yes, but the potential is far too big to leave it at that.  It
would be like marrying off Ranma and Akane after TIL chapter 2,
saying "I just wanted to marry these two.  I could have shown how
they dealt with the other fiancees, but that would have made the
story far too long".  When the subject matter *calls* for an epic,
forget about what it was *supposed* to be.


: > The TILma/Kentaro relationship is underexamined.
: 
: True, mostly because I didn't see it going anywhere other than 
: tolerance by TILma. 

I agree.  So show that.

I think that being forced to live in the same house and looking
after Kyoko would bring up many situation where Ranma might notice
how similar he and Kentaro are in their tastes and how their
personalities fit together.  He might realize that under other
circumstances they might have become best friends.  He would shove
that thought away violently, of course, afraid to admit that his
other self might not be as screwed up as he chooses to believe -
but it would also lend a bit more credibility to the two Ranmas'
argument in Limbo.


: > TOPma's wonderful insights when faced with a universe where she
: > is married to Akane should be balanced with something of
: > a revelation for TILma.
: 
: Hmm.

This is one reason why I want to have a confrontation between
TILma and TOPkane.  The TOP Ranma and Akane are brother and sister
(or just sisters) now, and happy about it, each in their own way. 
Ranma needs to see that, I think.  That TOPkane is happy *and* has
a good relationship to TOPma despite everything that went "wrong"
in TILma's mind.


: > Also TILma might turn female sometimes for Kyoko's benefit,
: 
: I showed him doing this while playing with her, although it happened 
: off-screen.

It might be a good scene, if Kentaro comes home at that point and
Ranma quickly turns male again, cutting short his play with Kyoko
because he can't bring himself to be female around Kentaro.


: > You could do that by emphasizing the ticking clock in form
: > of her unborn baby. (BTW, does it have a name?)
: 
: Er, no.  I did decide it was a boy.  Any suggestions?

Well, if it didn't make for such an imbalance between universes,
I'd say that TOPma learned a great name for her son through this
experience. :)


: > Also, I'd really have loved a TILma/TOPkane confrontation, though
: > that would probably a right bugger to write. :)
: 
: Which is part of why I avoided it.  But it is interesting to think 
: about.

One thing is that Akane would probably be less fearful of such a
metting that Ranma - she has already gone through all the
heartache associated with it (just like TOPma has) and has a
better handle on how to deal with it.  TILma, on the other hand,
would tyr to avoid such a meeting at all cost - but you know, when
you do everything to avoid one person, sooner or later you'll run
right into them.


: > In short, a wonderful story, and each expansion adds more great
: > aspects to it, but you are still too timid to explore it to its
: > full potential.  Please stop convincing yourself that this isn't a
: > very "worthy" or "valuable" fic or represents some kind of author
: > vanity, like you imply in the intro - it's not true.
: 
: <sigh>  Well, I'm glad you like it.  But... well, should I make this 
: thing as long as BE or RoS to explore all of this?  Is it really worth 
: an epic of that proportion, to cover subjects that were really already 
: covered in TIL and especially TOP?  'Cuz that's all I'm doing, really - 
: rehashing old topics.  *That's* why I hesitate to expand it further - 
: it's really all old news.
: 
: Whaddya think?

That you're nuts.  You're not detracting from either story, but
enriching and expanding them.  TILma has had the perfect life and
now he's confronted with a version of it that resembles hell on
earth at the first glance - on the other hand, TOPma had to
struggle for every bit of happyness that she now calls her own,
and she is thrown into a life where everything seems so *easy*, as
if devaluing her own hard-won happyness.  Both of them need to
realize that the first impression is wrong.  TOPma, being more
experienced in such things will learn quickly that having had to
struggle for her happyness does not devalue it at all.  TILma
will, of course, deny the possibility that the TOP universe could
be a happy one - but the seeds of that realization will take root
and the discussion with TOPma will bring them to flower.

Both characters will learn and grow through this experience - that
alone should prove that you are *not* rehashing old stuff.


: Thanks as always for the excellent C&C, Bast.

Damn, this is *fun*.  I feel reminded of when you wrote _Those
Tears are Pearl_.


Sebastian
-- <http://enterprise.mathematik.uni-essen.de/~bastian/> Comics reviewed
-- Computer: a device designed to speed and automate errors.