The thing here you forget is that arranged marriages ARE common in Japan,
and that people ARE held to it, even if there may not be a law about it.
The children do it out of respect for their parents.

Yes, _some_ do.  _Some_ people around here are curtious enough to let
people take their seat on the bus.  _Some_ people are crazy enough to go
into a school and shoot everyone in sight.  Neither of these are strong
holds (especially not the last) to an action.  Just because your parents
make a decision, even in Japan, you aren't always expected to go allow
blindly with it.

*sigh*

I hate it when people try to apply American stuff to Japan.

You must try to realise that if the children back out of it, and break the
engagement, then they lose face, dishonour their family, and they could
be disowned.

It may be less common these days, but it still happens.

Japanese culture isn't American culture - so don't try to place your own
values on the value of another society!

If Ranma broke off his engagment, which is a REAL engagement, with either
Akane or Ukyou, he could quite easily be kicked out of the Saotome clan,
and it would probably be his mother who'd kick him out.

I guess that you could say that there's no law forcing an engaged
couple to marry - but most of them do it because they love each other.
It's not a law ... but it is still held to.

Yes, most that do it are in love, and when Ranma says he's in love with
one of the girls then it's an engagement and not before.  I'll also
remember this little point that people forced together can and often do
fall in love.

Oh, good. Then he's engaged to Akane, by American standards. He said that
he loved her, so that should be good enough for you.

So, basically, Ranma and Akane ARE engaged, Ranma and Ukyou ARE engaged,

No, they are not!  Not legally at all, and no consent on Ranma's part.
When he consents openly okay, not before.  They have a claim to him, an
honorable claim and see just below....

Well, no-one is EVER legally engaged. I hate to break it to you. There is
no law, not even in America, saying that when person X proposes to person
Y that they are engaged by law. :p

And, as I said before, you are trying to place your American views on the
Japanese culture.

They ARE engaged by Japanese culture.

They are NOT American, so you can't say that they are not engaged, because
they are not Americans.

They ARE engaged because that is how one can become engaged in Japan.

It used to be common even in America, too, especially among the wealthy
class. It just isn't done any more in American.

It is still done in Japan.

and Shampoo is nothing to do with Ranma, except in her own mind and in
the minds of her people.

Now, honorably speaking Ranma has wronged Shampoo, not once, not twice,
three times.  Taking her prize without premission, embarrising her infront

Which he fixed up with the fight, so that cleared up that 'wrong'.

of the whole village, being basicly response for her curse (this doesn't

That has nothing to do with it - he beat her in a fight. There is nothing
'wrong' in winning a fight. If Shampoo sucks as a fighter compared to
Ranma, then that's he problem. Not Ranma's.

So that's not even a 'wrong'.

even count mental distress caused by his lie of being truly a girl).

Sorry, that was Cologne who was responsible, as a punishment for sucking.
Shampoo didn't do what was expected, so it's HER fauly. Not Ranma's.

So that's not even a 'wrong'.

Honorably speaking he owes his father something (this is just tradition,
in truth I think Genma should be shot for his upbringing) and thus holds
to the engagement with Akane.  With Ukyo it's very similar save Genma

Yep... And because he's also secretly in love with Akane.

unofficial dissolved the engagement by running off on her and thus wronged
her.  With Shampoo he wronged her three times and honorably must make

Yes, but this is Genma's fault, and so it's a Saotome family 'wrong'. So
Ranma must keep the engagement to uphold the family honour.

compensation.  Should any of these count as a true engagement, NO!  Do
they all have some claim, yes.

With Shampoo, he wronged her once, and made up for it by fighting with
her in the competition. So Ranma owes Shampoo nothing.

Shampoo was stupid enough to not get her honour back, so it's Shampoo's
fault that she was embarassed and turned into a cat. It's not Ranma's
fault.

So Shampoo has no claim what so ever. And she's still not a fiancee, she
thinks that she is a _wife_.

Ranma and Akane/Ranma and Ukyou are engaged in the minds of ALL the
people.

Not in mine their not.

Yes, in their mind.

Ranma calls Akane his "uncute fiancee", and Ukyou is called Ranma's "cute
fiancee". They are engaged in their own minds, even if they don't want to
be married.

Why else would Akane try to break off the engagement if she gets angry,
if she didn't believe that she was engaged?

There characters all say that they are engaged - Ranma, Akane and Ukyou,
so why do you say that they don't think that they are?

You saying that they are lying?

Plus, how on earth can you blame Ranma for something he didn't know?

He has an obligation to know the Amazon laws since he entered their
society.  I know some cavalierly think otherwise but that is wrong.
You enter a society with it's own laws, even on a short visit, you are
held to the laws.  Ignorance isn't a defense. 

Ooooooooooooooooookaaaaaay. This is one of the most stupid things that
I've heard.

If I went on a safari across Africa, I am expected to know the law of
every little sub-culture in that continent?

Ranma only has an obligation to know general laws... and that would be the
general laws of China. NOT the laws of an un-heard of culture within that
country.

That's like saying that if, on my safari, I went through a village of
people, that I'd have to know all their laws before I even knew that they
existed!

And since it's a village, only the laws of China apply as laws. What the
Amazons call "laws" are only customs that are held to by the people of
that village.

And how on earth does one learn the laws (customs) of a village before
they even get there? Ranma just was resting there before continuing on
his travel.

I'd like to see you try to learn the laws of every little village you pass
through on a trip. It's impossible.

And Shampoo's "laws" don't even apply outside of her village.

So they do NOT hold anywhere else in China, let along in Japan!

So Shampoo is wronging Ranma by trying to force him to do what her laws
say. She owes Ranma.

Shampoo, if she had any honour, would go back to where her laws applied,
and stop trying to force her laws on someone who isn't in her village.

Amazon Rules that Ranma knew up till that point - Any Amazon who gets
KOed by an outsider is to be killed.

Still, he should have had a working knowledge of the Amazon laws since he
entered their society at one time.  Matter of fact, it was stupid of him
not to check up on the laws after the KOD since he just might have found a
way out of the mess.

Oh, good. Let's see you get a working knowledge of the law of the Zulus.
They're more famous than an unknown village of the Amazons, and you have a
lot more time to learn the laws than Ranma had - he only had about 10m or
so since he even knew the Amazons existed - so can you do this?

If you can't, then you are spouting a lot of nonsense here.

So, Ranma could stand with the killing - but he had no idea about the
other law.

Still, he was reckless.  It's quite clear he didn't put any thought into
his action and just went off and did something stupid.  As I said,
carelessness and recklessness do not amount to a defense.

That's normal for Ranma.

And he doesn't need a defense, because it's only you how are saying silly
things like this. Shampoo's "laws" do NOT apply in Japan. They do NOT
apply in China. The ONLY apply in her village.

So it's SHAMPOO who is in the wrong here, not Ranma.

So how, pray tell, is it Ranma's fault?

Simple, he was reckless.

Well, however reckless Ranma is, it's Shampoo's fault for trying to force
her village customs on other cultures, just as it's your fault for trying
to force American customs on Japanese culture.

Maybe if you go to another place, and break a custom that you didn't

This isn't a custom, it's a law.

No, it's a custom. If it was a law, then all of China would have that law.
The little village isn't a totally different country, you know!

know about, then it's your fault? And that you should be forced to
do the punishment for breaking that custom, even though you didn't
know about it?

Yes, you should be punished.  If you think you shouldn't you're just plain
wrong.  I stated this before, whenever you enter a lawful society you have
an obligation to know and abide by the laws.  Ranma failed to do this, and
therefore committed a reckless or careless action.  He should have known
the laws.

But the Amazon's aren't lawful. They do not follow the laws of their own
country. So that's stupid trying to say that they are lawful. They can't
even keep the laws of other countries.

So why don't you tell us all how bad Shampoo is, because she doesn't
follow the laws of Japan? After all, she's been there for a LOT longer
than Ranmma was in her little village. And she SHOULD know the law of
Japan, like you said.

So where's all the writing about how Shampoo is worse than Ranma, since
she does more wrong than he's ever done?

Ranma may be reckless, but at least he doesn't try to force his laws on
Shampoo's village. He just left. That should have been the end of it.

Now, to repeat myself one last time, I consider _none_ of the so called
engagements valid.  Everyone has claims to Ranma but none amount to a real
engagement.

Well, Ranma, Akane and Ukyou and Shampoo disagree with you. Shampoo thinks
that she's already married to Ranma. Ranma thinks that he's engaged to
Akane and Ukyou. Akane and Ukyou think that they are both engaged to
Ranma.

So it doesn't matter what you think - it's what they, the people involved,
including their families, think, and what the people of Japan think.

Not what Americans of subcultures of China think.

Kun-chan...
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* http://www.ecr.mu.oz.au/~caseawr *
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* High Priestess of Ryouga         *
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